Mama Jude's Pep Talk

heyjude

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Zelenka! :Hug2: I am so, so sorry. The others have given you great advice.

How many mss have you completed? I have nine-ish hanging around. Others have had more. This, to use an antiquated expression, is where we separate the men from the boys. We will not quit. We will keep moving. The next book will be better.

The thought of shelving the book for a while is a good one. Take a break from it. Write something new and fresh, or give yourself a chance to not write at all, just for a bit. Recharge. Really, this is good, sound advice. You know that expression, everything looks better in the morning? I want to stab people with rusty forks whenever they say that expression, but it's true.

:Hug2: I believe in you.
 

Namatu

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You know that expression, everything looks better in the morning? I want to stab people with rusty forks whenever they say that expression, but it's true.
Well, maybe not first thing in the morning. I could stab people with rusty forks every early morning on my way to work. Late morning's better. :tongue
 

Zelenka

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Did they provide you with any specifics or were the comments as general as what you list here? What were some of the specifics? General comments serve little to no purpose without examples to back them up. You can go forward with examples. General comments are flotsam blowing in the wind.

There was one specific comment, which I get, about the prologuey bit, which I hate and wanted to take out anyway. They said there was no sense of character, MC was poorly developed and the story should be character driven, whereas it was just characters "inserted into a story", and there was no sense of setting.

That's the hardest thing to do, but if you know you avoid description, start making yourself write it. Exercises. No commitment. No 80k novel hinging on it. You practice, like homework, on the things you're not comfortable with, and you get better.

My trouble is I was working on what I thought were my weak areas. Plotting is my weakest, I'm ok at ideas but rubbish at making solid, believable plots, so that's what I'd been trying to work on. I didn't realise my characterisation and description were bad as well.
 

Namatu

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There was one specific comment, which I get, about the prologuey bit, which I hate and wanted to take out anyway. They said there was no sense of character, MC was poorly developed and the story should be character driven, whereas it was just characters "inserted into a story", and there was no sense of setting.
Ugh. That's not really helpful. I once had an editor tell me that my novel lacked a sense of setting, but... I had described things rather thoroughly. Description wasn't my strong suit then so I'd made a very conscious efforts to be descriptive with people, locations, atmosphere, even the weather when it was relevant. Sometimes people don't pay very good attention.
 

Zelenka

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First, stick it in the bottom of a draw for a few days. Then when you have cooled off - and consumed the appropriate levels of alcohol/chocolate/ice cream/prozac - re-read the comments. Remember, the entry was good enough to be shortlisted.

I still don't understand why it was, that's the thing. And I imagine the judges were thinking the same when they read the sample.

Zelenka--keep in mind, too, that the comments don't mean it's terrible. They're things that can be improved. It might be easy to interpret that as "OMG it sucks," but really what it might mean is, "This was pretty good but it will be amazing if this and this and this are fixed." No matter how good a work is, there will always be things that can be improved. Always. So try not to see this as a comment on quality because it isn't necessarily.

It's the generality of the flaws though, basically what I screwed up were the fundamental elements of good storytelling, every aspect of the novel was badly done. Other than deleting the MS and writing a completely new book, I don't know what to do.

I just feel I wasted their time and should've known better than to submit in the first place. I mean, it's the fact that, as a fairly critical reader and someone who's never believed her work poops rainbows, I didn't see that it was this bad beforehand, that's what worries and really embarrasses me.
 

Zelenka

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Zelenka! :Hug2: I am so, so sorry. The others have given you great advice.

How many mss have you completed? I have nine-ish hanging around. Others have had more. This, to use an antiquated expression, is where we separate the men from the boys. We will not quit. We will keep moving. The next book will be better.

I don't know how many I've completed, but I've subbed three over the last few years, one of which has the distinction of being rejected by every eligible agency (as in who repped the genre) in the Writer's Handbook. But I've written others that've never been submitted because again, the feedback was that there was nothing of any merit in them. My instinct is always to try and write a new one that's better and improve on what I did wrong, then I always discover that I've gone maybe too far the other way, or there's something else I'm doing wrong.

You know that expression, everything looks better in the morning? I want to stab people with rusty forks whenever they say that expression, but it's true.

I hope so, and I'm sorry for being such a downer, only I've never felt this low about my writing or a long time. I'm trying my hardest though not to go down the same road as last time and get worked up into being scared to write, because it'll suck, because I know that was a stupid reaction and it gave me a miserable year of not being able to write.
 

Zelenka

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Ugh. That's not really helpful. I once had an editor tell me that my novel lacked a sense of setting, but... I had described things rather thoroughly. Description wasn't my strong suit then so I'd made a very conscious efforts to be descriptive with people, locations, atmosphere, even the weather when it was relevant. Sometimes people don't pay very good attention.

See I thought I did too much in terms of description, but then I was also told I should start the book with action or no one would read on, which now seems to be going out of fashion as an approach. But also the prologuey thing just plain sucked, I'll grant them that.

Hey, at least I'd only got round to email queries, hadn't wasted money on snail mail ones yet. Bright side.
 

Namatu

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You could give someone feedback "Your MC is TSTL!" It's not helpful. Maybe he was okay up until a certain point. Maybe a reader could forgive an ill-advised decision or two, but there was one that pushed it over the edge and boom! TSTL. But the general comment does nothing to point the author toward where things are going wrong. Instead, the comment feels overwhelming, like a huge flaw that leaves the author not knowing where to start, what to do about it. The reality is, a TSTL problem could be a huge flaw or it could be key points needing an adjustment that will smooth that character blip out completely. You can't tell from a general comment. Do not let these detail-less comments draw much blood!
 
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heyjude

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It's the generality of the flaws though, basically what I screwed up were the fundamental elements of good storytelling, every aspect of the novel was badly done. Other than deleting the MS and writing a completely new book, I don't know what to do.

I'm sensing a theme here. You're doing your darndest to write a good book, right? Not just a good book but a commercially acceptable, by-the-book (so to speak) ms that will please everyone. Stop that. Write what you're passionate about. Write without worrying. Write what inspires you, what drives you, without thinking "Is this enough description?" or "Did I start in the right place?"

I subbed two books to agents. The first failed, and rightly so. Looking back, it simply wasn't good enough. I shrugged that off and thought you know what? I'm going to write the book of my heart. It's wild and crazy and breaks some genre rules and it's impractical and some of the plot points might seem impossible and it's written in first person present tense (gasp!), but it's the book I want to write. That was the book that got me an agent, the book where I stopped writing for other people and started writing for me. It didn't sell, true, but who cares? I'm over the moon that it got that far. :)

Now, I could be wrong. This could not be your problem. But maybe it is and my experience can help. I just want to see you keep writing and have faith in you. :Hug2:
 

gothicangel

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I'm sensing a theme here. You're doing your darndest to write a good book, right? Not just a good book but a commercially acceptable, by-the-book (so to speak) ms that will please everyone. Stop that. Write what you're passionate about. Write without worrying. Write what inspires you, what drives you, without thinking "Is this enough description?" or "Did I start in the right place?"

I subbed two books to agents. The first failed, and rightly so. Looking back, it simply wasn't good enough. I shrugged that off and thought you know what? I'm going to write the book of my heart. It's wild and crazy and breaks some genre rules and it's impractical and some of the plot points might seem impossible and it's written in first person present tense (gasp!), but it's the book I want to write. That was the book that got me an agent, the book where I stopped writing for other people and started writing for me. It didn't sell, true, but who cares? I'm over the moon that it got that far. :)

Now, I could be wrong. This could not be your problem. But maybe it is and my experience can help. I just want to see you keep writing and have faith in you. :Hug2:

I agree with HJ. This is what happened with my first book, I was writing for other people, trying to be literary. I think I burned myself out. Then after seeing The Eagle I realised, you know what I prefer a good action adventure/thriller over a 'who-dunnit.' I ended up producing a draft in two months.

While I had a break recently, I realised that my bookshelves and DVD collection actually contained more historical fiction than crime. I even realised since I started reading more historical thrillers, I read more.

The first book isn't dead, I'm trying to find a way of working it into a Roman setting. :)
 

kaitie

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I still don't understand why it was, that's the thing. And I imagine the judges were thinking the same when they read the sample.

It's the generality of the flaws though, basically what I screwed up were the fundamental elements of good storytelling, every aspect of the novel was badly done. Other than deleting the MS and writing a completely new book, I don't know what to do.

I just feel I wasted their time and should've known better than to submit in the first place. I mean, it's the fact that, as a fairly critical reader and someone who's never believed her work poops rainbows, I didn't see that it was this bad beforehand, that's what worries and really embarrasses me.

I'm gonna say three things. One: Your work was good enough to be shortlisted. Maybe you see everything they mentioned as horrible fatal flaws, but you were better than the majority of people submitting. That might be hard for you to believe right now, but it's true. And you shouldn't be embarrassed that someone saw it. Someone thought enough of you to give you feedback. I say this as someone who has worked with a lot of writers at all levels. When I see someone and offer advice, I don't think, "Wow this person sucks." I see them as someone at a certain stage that I hope will learn from the advice and improve to move up to the next stage. You should be proud that you were shortlisted, not ashamed that someone saw your work, especially when those people are professionals who are trying to help you improve.

Now, two stories. The first is kind of silly, but Namatu read a bit of a story for me once and tore it to shreds (love ya!). At one point she virtually threw it across the room. Obviously that book had pretty big flaws, but a lot of other people had read it and thought it was fine. Her advice helped and I was able to improve it a lot, but trust me, they were tough crits to see. I also saw them for what they were, though: an effort to help me learn and improve. And I did learn, a lot.

The second story hits close to home. I know what you mean about getting caught up in "I suck" and not being able to move on. I stopped writing for a long time after my writing professor gave me some pretty harsh comments. I ended up so insecure that every time I looked at a story, I'd write a page or two, then tear it up convinced it was awful. I had one finished novel I couldn't even begin to edit because I was so caught up in how terrible of a writer I was that I couldn't move on. I get that feeling. I really do.

But after awhile, I started thinking. I had an idea I wanted to write, but was very afraid I'd be unable to do it. So I decided to listen to the criticism that had torn me to pieces before and improve it. Rather than looking at it as evidence that I was terrible, I saw it as something I knew was a problem and could therefore be remedied. I worked my butt off, and it took two books, but my writing has improved enough that I was actually able to get an agent after doing this.

I no longer see that professor's comments as destroying me. Instead they were what helped bring me up a few notches in skill. It's hard to see it that way. I know it's hard, but that's the thing about writing. It's a learned skill. It's not something we're good at overnight, and for some of us it takes a lot of practice and effort to get really good.

Think of these comments as a coach, as someone prodding you to help you improve, not as something to bring you down. If you don't see how you can fix this current story, then put it down and write a new one. The other great thing about writing is that you can always come back to it later. Putting it aside for now isn't the same as throwing it in the trash forever.

Work on a new story and keep in mind what those comments were. Use them as you plan, even if it's just at the back of your mind. You have no idea how much just knowing your weaknesses will actually help you. I really sucked at plot and dialogue. Plot is still tough for me, but dialogue has become one of my strong suits. But for years I didn't really know that. I mean, I did at the back of my mind, but it took someone actually saying it and pointing it out for me to accept it, and as soon as it was pointed out, I was able to start trying to improve.

Every crit I have gotten has left me feeling that way. When someone points out flaws in my book, even when they're frustrating flaws, most of the time it's something I kind of knew in the back of my mind wasn't working, but just having someone put into words specifically what the problem is can lead me to a solution. And I then remember that with each new project I work on. I know that for my last book my opening was too slow and had issues with pacing. It took a couple of tries but I improved that. Now I know to look for it and I know I have the same issue with the new one, but because I know it's there, I can also fix it myself in the next draft without needing someone else to come along and tell me.

You really have been given a gift, as hard as that is to believe right now. Right now it hurts, and that emotion is hard to overcome, but once you do, you're going to apply those comments and you'll be an even better writer, and then the next time you get critiques, it won't sting as much.

And remember, too, that we're here to help. If you need advice or someone to read a chapter or two or even just someone to help you sort out a solution, you have a whole room of people who would love to help you. You aren't in this alone. We understand what it's like, and we're all rooting for you.
 

knightrunnermat

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That was an awesome pep talk, Kaitie! Just as a side-note to this, I am always willing to help anyone with their writing. I am far from perfect myself, but I truly enjoy reading other people's work and helping them to improve it,
 

Namatu

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Well said, kaitie! Even, I suppose, this part:

Namatu read a bit of a story for me once and tore it to shreds (love ya!). At one point she virtually threw it across the room.
I forgot I'd thrown it! :e2sling:
 

kaitie

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I think that was the toughest thing to read, but I just had to laugh it off. I mean, in retrospect, it was pretty funny. :tongue
 

Zelenka

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I'm sensing a theme here. You're doing your darndest to write a good book, right? Not just a good book but a commercially acceptable, by-the-book (so to speak) ms that will please everyone. Stop that. Write what you're passionate about. Write without worrying. Write what inspires you, what drives you, without thinking "Is this enough description?" or "Did I start in the right place?"

No, I don't think so. To be honest I was more worried about the opposite. When I write, it's because I have an idea that won't go away. Basically I keep a few dozen notebooks of ideas and most are just one liners, premises etc, but every now and then one comes that won't go away and keeps almost developing itself in my head, then I write that one. Those questions are in the back of my mind as I'm writing though, because I've had so many comments as to things I do wrong, I do have that worry that I'm just repeating the same mistakes and trying to improve. I think it's possible to write what you love and have at the back of your mind how to frame that into a 'by the book' story too. Maybe I'm wrong though. Wouldn't be the first time.

I wanted too though to thank everyone for their comments and I apologise if I've been a whine about it all. I know you're supposed to suck everything up, and in complaining that I have ended up feeling like a useless amateur by all this I'm probably making myself look even more like one. Just this wasn't just a critique, this was some of the top players in the industry I've made an idiot of myself in front of. But your comments have helped. As has cherry ice cream.
 

kaitie

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I wanted too though to thank everyone for their comments and I apologise if I've been a whine about it all. I know you're supposed to suck everything up, and in complaining that I have ended up feeling like a useless amateur by all this I'm probably making myself look even more like one. Just this wasn't just a critique, this was some of the top players in the industry I've made an idiot of myself in front of. But your comments have helped. As has cherry ice cream.

Everyone has felt this way. That's part of what I like about this community. This is the kind of thing that most non-writers don't understand. This is a place we can come to with our insecurities and bad days and get a hug from people who know what it's like. That means a lot.
 

kaitie

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It's uh...purple?
 

kaitie

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But but but...I like purple.