Mama Jude's Pep Talk

gothicangel

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Wow, gothic! That's amazing! Congratulations. :) So, are you happy with it? It must have been a ton of fun to write.

It was a lot of fun to write. :)

I'm pretty happy with it, still needs work though, as all first drafts do. ;)
 

muse

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I've just finished the first draft of my Roman historical thriller tonight. In two months no less, that has to be a record for me.

:snoopy:

Sending positive vibes out to MTS. You can do it. :Hug2:

Two months! That is inspiring, gothicangel.
 

tarak

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:( I'm sorry. Anything useful, or just forms?
A little of both. One was a form R, and that didn't bother me in the slightest, to be honest. One loved my query (she specifically mentioned how much she enjoyed it) and the writing that was in 3rd, but had a hard time adjusting to the switch in POV (only the first page is in 3rd person POV). The third, I really shouldn't take as an R. She mentioned there wasn't enough fantasy in my urban fantasy, that it was more of a straight-up thriller. And it really is for the first 50 pages. She liked the voice did ask me to resubmit if I revise. She's not the first agent to state this. The problem is I have no idea how to shift things around, and bring the fantasy aspects up sooner, other than just shifting scenes around.

On top of that, I just about took off my thumb with a crossbow this weekend (because I'm a moron - I should stick to the pistol range, since I clearly know where not to put my digits when I'm handling a firearm), so I'm just feeling sorry for myself, I think.
 

heyjude

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Oh, wow. I'm glad you still have a thumb attached.

Can you shift scenes around so that the fantasy is sooner? Do you have a good beta who can help you brainstorm?
 

tarak

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Can you shift scenes around so that the fantasy is sooner? Do you have a good beta who can help you brainstorm?

I've been trying to figure out how to do this. I have a few ideas, and a fantastic beta. I'll probably shoot her an email about this tonight. I also tell myself that two other agents didn't have issues at all about when and where the "weird" popped up, so it could also be a personal preference sort of thing. But it could also be a marketability thing.

This writing thing. It's not for sissies, is it?:)
 

kaitie

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I know this is going to sound stupid, but why not shift the scenes around? I've had to do a ton of scene shifting in my day. You can always save it in a new file in case you don't like it.

In any case, that's actually really awesome. You got an r&r, which is a good sign, and a compliment. You're definitely close.
 

heyjude

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This writing thing. It's not for sissies, is it?:)

No, it is not. Nor for quitters. Or the sensitive. Or the thin-skinned. Or... I feel like I might cry... :D

Seriously, it is hard, sometimes brutal-feeling, and trying to untangle the right thing can be darn near impossible.
 

tarak

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I know this is going to sound stupid, but why not shift the scenes around? I've had to do a ton of scene shifting in my day. You can always save it in a new file in case you don't like it.

In any case, that's actually really awesome. You got an r&r, which is a good sign, and a compliment. You're definitely close.

You're right that it's a good sign. I have a few thoughts floating around, so I might tinker a bit tonight after Things 1-3 are in bed. I'm sort of stalled on the WIP I'm taking on right now - I have to research chemicals used in taxidermy and I'm less than inspired.

Also? Bacon covered in chocolate followed by a glass of red wine has done wonders for my mood.
 
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kaitie

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No, it is not. Nor for quitters. Or the sensitive. Or the thin-skinned. Or... I feel like I might cry... :D

Seriously, it is hard, sometimes brutal-feeling, and trying to untangle the right thing can be darn near impossible.

So darn true.
 

heyjude

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Two motivational quotes

Just a couple quotes I came across recently that made me think of those of us on a path toward publication:

Success is not a goal; it's a byproduct. -Coach Taylor, Friday Night Lights (TV show)


Never did the harvest come before the till, nor the victory before the will-The Bridge, Diggin' In the Cold Ground
 

gothicangel

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In Need Of A Pep Talk

So I've been working on rewriting my first chapter for the last week . . . and I still hate it.

I need some chocolate. :e2bummed:
 

heyjude

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:Hug2: To Zelenka. I didn't see your post before you deleted, but (((hugs))).

:Hug2: to gothic. What makes you hate it? Are you starting in the right place? What are your beta readers saying? Is it just that second-draft-holy-crap-did-I-write-a-pile-of-goo that we all go through?
 

gothicangel

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Is it just that second-draft-holy-crap-did-I-write-a-pile-of-goo that we all go through?

Partly this. No hook. Too much description. Just feels kinda confused.

I spent this evening reading and watching youtube vids, getting ideas, thinking 'that's great, I have to use that!'

I need some thinking time, maybe.
 

Zelenka

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HJ - yeah, sorry, just had a bad day t Hrrogte and was letting things g o me, then I felt bad about whinging. :)

Gothic - I don't know your writing / editing methods but maybe if you set that chapter aside and just move on with the rest, let it stew or a while and like you say, get all your ideas and inspiration in. In the meantime, loads of good vibes your way. You can do it. Seen your posts on your work and you've obviously got a real passion or your subjects.
 

JayWalloping

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I don't know your writing / editing methods but maybe if you set that chapter aside and just move on with the rest, let it stew or a while and like you say, get all your ideas and inspiration in.

I agree that the 'let-it-rest' method can work. But not for all people and not in all cases.

Other things I like to try:

-- Save a draft of your book in a safe place and then open your manuscript and delete the first chapter or first two. Up until you think the plot really starts. Sleep on it overnight. Look at it the next morning and see if it works better. The manuscript I'm finishing up now I had to do this several times to get to the real beginning (I figure I trimmed most of the first hundred pages by the time I was done. Ouch.). If you hate what you did, do back to your saved draft. No harm done.

-- Start the edit at the end. Make the ending as good as it can be. Then figure out your plan to get from the beginning to the end the very best way.

-- Write yourself a note at the top of each chapter -- what were you supposed to accomplish in this chapter? Give yourself guidelines for your edit, make sure you make happen what you think you need to happen. I found this very helpful, especially in the mushy middle of the second/third draft of my novel. Things tightened right up once I had a definite plan for where I was going.

Best of luck! You can, and will, figure it out.
 

gothicangel

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HJ - yeah, sorry, just had a bad day t Hrrogte and was letting things g o me, then I felt bad about whinging. :)

Gothic - I don't know your writing / editing methods but maybe if you set that chapter aside and just move on with the rest, let it stew or a while and like you say, get all your ideas and inspiration in. In the meantime, loads of good vibes your way. You can do it. Seen your posts on your work and you've obviously got a real passion or your subjects.


I agree that the 'let-it-rest' method can work. But not for all people and not in all cases.

Other things I like to try:

-- Save a draft of your book in a safe place and then open your manuscript and delete the first chapter or first two. Up until you think the plot really starts. Sleep on it overnight. Look at it the next morning and see if it works better. The manuscript I'm finishing up now I had to do this several times to get to the real beginning (I figure I trimmed most of the first hundred pages by the time I was done. Ouch.). If you hate what you did, do back to your saved draft. No harm done.

-- Start the edit at the end. Make the ending as good as it can be. Then figure out your plan to get from the beginning to the end the very best way.

-- Write yourself a note at the top of each chapter -- what were you supposed to accomplish in this chapter? Give yourself guidelines for your edit, make sure you make happen what you think you need to happen. I found this very helpful, especially in the mushy middle of the second/third draft of my novel. Things tightened right up once I had a definite plan for where I was going.

Best of luck! You can, and will, figure it out.

Thanks. :)
 

Zelenka

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OK, this time I do really need advice. Got my comments back today on my competition entry - basically there was nothing positive at all, everything was substandard and badly done, plot, character, setting, everything. I just don't know what to do now. I mean, basically that's loads of the top names in the industry seen that I have no talent. I don't even know where to begin revising when the flaws are so fundamental. I just don't know what to do, whether to trunk the book, but then that's another book I've tried, failed and got rid of. And if I start a new project what's to stop it turning out as awful, if the flaws are actually basically just a lack of understanding and talent on my part? What if I just don't have that 'it' factor? And what do I do about the queries on the book that are out there (because I really didn't think it was *that* bad, I thought it needed work done on it and I wasn't happy with the draft that was sent to the agency that asked for it, but that was done really quickly because they were asking, you know?)

Sorry, it's just I kind of expected it to be bad, just from the way the Harrogate thing went, but I didn't think that *everything* would be wrong with it, you know? I thought maybe some things I could work on. I just feel really stupid, especially with everyone saying 'oh agents will be hounding you' and such because of the award. They're not hounding me because my submission was mince. So what do I do now? I don't know how to quit writing as it's the only thing that's been a big, steady part of my life all my life. I've just never felt so low about it before.
 
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Namatu

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First, :Hug2:. Next, I'd say you have to let the comments sit and sink in so they become less than fresh. ;) Then you have to be methodical about it. (Note: Nowhere am I supporting the "stop writing" idea you mentioned. That's crazy talk.)

Got my comments back today on my competition entry - basically there was nothing positive at all, everything was substandard and badly done, plot, character, setting, everything.
Did they provide you with any specifics or were the comments as general as what you list here? What were some of the specifics? General comments serve little to no purpose without examples to back them up. You can go forward with examples. General comments are flotsam blowing in the wind.

I just don't know what to do now. I mean, basically that's loads of the top names in the industry seen that I have no talent.
Remember how subjective this industry is. Everything can be improved on, and those improvements can change opinions significantly.

I don't even know where to begin revising when the flaws are so fundamental. I just don't know what to do, whether to trunk the book, but then that's another book I've tried, failed and got rid of.
If you trunk it, it's not just another book you've tried, failed, and got rid of. It's another book you've labored over and developed your skills on so that you can continue to improve and write even better books. I can't say whether it's got fundamental flaws or anything else, but real failure is not trying. You are trying.

And if I start a new project what's to stop it turning out as awful, if the flaws are actually basically just a lack of understanding and talent on my part?
You want to improve, right? You are determined? Then you will practice. Practice means writing more, assessing how what you're reading works or doesn't work. Can you apply that same sort of critical eye to your own writing? That's the hardest thing to do, but if you know you avoid description, start making yourself write it. Exercises. No commitment. No 80k novel hinging on it. You practice, like homework, on the things you're not comfortable with, and you get better.

And what do I do about the queries on the book that are out there?
You leave them out there. It's okay. It's painful, but it's okay. It has to be because you can't take them back, you know?

Sorry, it's just I kind of expected it to be bad, just from the way the Harrogate thing went, but I didn't think that *everything* would be wrong with it, you know? I thought maybe some things I could work on. I just feel really stupid, especially with everyone saying 'oh agents will be hounding you' and such because of the award. They're not hounding me because my submission was mince. So what do I do now?
:Hug2: Now we break down the comments you got and see what can be done with them. We get rid of the useless ones and make it all manageable and constructive so you can keep moving forward with your craft.
 

kaitie

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OK, this time I do really need advice. Got my comments back today on my competition entry - basically there was nothing positive at all, everything was substandard and badly done, plot, character, setting, everything. I just don't know what to do now. I mean, basically that's loads of the top names in the industry seen that I have no talent. I don't even know where to begin revising when the flaws are so fundamental. I just don't know what to do, whether to trunk the book, but then that's another book I've tried, failed and got rid of. And if I start a new project what's to stop it turning out as awful, if the flaws are actually basically just a lack of understanding and talent on my part? What if I just don't have that 'it' factor? And what do I do about the queries on the book that are out there (because I really didn't think it was *that* bad, I thought it needed work done on it and I wasn't happy with the draft that was sent to the agency that asked for it, but that was done really quickly because they were asking, you know?)

Sorry, it's just I kind of expected it to be bad, just from the way the Harrogate thing went, but I didn't think that *everything* would be wrong with it, you know? I thought maybe some things I could work on. I just feel really stupid, especially with everyone saying 'oh agents will be hounding you' and such because of the award. They're not hounding me because my submission was mince. So what do I do now? I don't know how to quit writing as it's the only thing that's been a big, steady part of my life all my life. I've just never felt so low about it before.

*HUGS* This is so horrible. :( But think of it this way. It's not everything about it sucks, it's here are the things that can be improved. And the great thing about writing is that it can always be improved. It's not something you get one chance at and that's it.

Here's my thoughts. If it looks like too much and you don't start seeing ways to improve it in the next few days, let it simmer for awhile and work on something else.

I've been given some pretty difficult revision notes before, ones that I look at and say "omg how am I even going to do this? It's just not possible." But generally after a few days, things start coming to me. I get ideas for how things could work and how to improve, and I've always been happier with the results.

I also tend to work on the problems one at a time. I make a list and then work through and it makes it much easier and less overwhelming.

You can definitely do this, and as hard as it is, you can even think of this as a gift. It's so hard to find out where our weaknesses are and get good feedback. You've been given the kind of feedback that, while difficult, is something you can actually work with.

You definitely deserve some ice cream, though. Or maybe some gelato. Yeah, definitely gelato.
 

gothicangel

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:Hug2:

I am guessing this is the CWA entry?

First, stick it in the bottom of a draw for a few days. Then when you have cooled off - and consumed the appropriate levels of alcohol/chocolate/ice cream/prozac - re-read the comments. Remember, the entry was good enough to be shortlisted.

I think what is getting to you is that at the moment the criticism is confirming everything your inner editor has been saying - what our inner editors say to all of us.



 

kaitie

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Zelenka--keep in mind, too, that the comments don't mean it's terrible. They're things that can be improved. It might be easy to interpret that as "OMG it sucks," but really what it might mean is, "This was pretty good but it will be amazing if this and this and this are fixed." No matter how good a work is, there will always be things that can be improved. Always. So try not to see this as a comment on quality because it isn't necessarily.