Mom and Dad? This one is for Sissybaby

ILSinTexas · Mar 30, 2010

Hi all -

I have a question for which I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer.

It involves one of our members, Sissybaby.

Back in the spring of last year, there was a "hook the agent" contest on a blog -- Miss Snark's First Victim. My wonderful beta reader, Sissybaby, emailed me and told me she was told she couldn't make Mom and Dad proper names in her MS, because they weren't proper names. This is what the agent had said in response to her submission. In fact, it was the main reason she decided not to read further. At the time, I didn't understand why an agent would say that because I had learned if mom is preceeded by a pronoun, it's not capped. If it represents a name, it is capped.

For example:

Gerald's mom didn't argue.

Or

When she heard him out, Mom didn't argue.

Today, while reading through the blog that Sissybaby had posted on, I found the submission. I read and reread the agent's response. At first, I was totally confused. WTF? I did research on the internet and all the pages I found said I was correct.

Finally, it dawned on me. What this agent meant is if you are writing in 3rd person, you can't make Mom and Dad proper names because the narrator isn't your protag, the narrator is YOU. And the narrator's mom and dad are not your mom and dad. I think what she's saying is that in third person, you have to say "his mom" or "her dad". If you write in first person, then the narrator is the protag, so it's okay to cap Mom and Dad.

This means I have to go back through my MUCH edited novel and add a bunch of "his mom's" to replace Mom. Seems like a strange new rule. But, oh well! Nobody said this would be easy.

Any comments would be appreciated --

Irene

Smish · Mar 30, 2010

In close-third, Mom and Dad can be proper nouns.

For example:

Jonah wanted to go to the movie with Jack. Mom said he couldn't, so he asked Dad.

I haven't read the blog entry in question, so it's tough to say for sure, but my hunch is that one of two things happened: 1) The agent was simply wrong. Agents are not editors. While some agents have worked as editors, many have not. It's certainly not a job requirement. 2) Something was lost in translation. The agent's comments may simply have been unclear, and that led to confusion.

Smish

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 30, 2010

I feel something like that is part of the writer's creation. If you want to capitalize it, do so. I've read books (both 1st and 3rd) in which the writer caps all kinds of things, even emotions. "When she saw them holding hands, all she felt was pure, unabated Jealousy." Some rules of language shouldn't be broken, but this seems to fall more under the umbrella of style rather than hard grammar rules.

Toothpaste · Mar 30, 2010

When Mom and Dad are used to replace names, they are capitalised. It's like nicknames, "How are you, Freckles?" So you as an author just have to decide on the voice of the piece:

First person:

Mom and Dad said I was pretty. I didn't usually believe it when Dad said it, but Mom was pretty honest.

My mom and dad said I was pretty. I didn't usually believe it when my dad said it, but my mom was pretty honest.

Third Person:

Mom and Dad said she was pretty. She didn't believe it when Dad said it, but Mom was usually pretty honest.

Her mom and dad said she was pretty. She didn't believe it when her dad said it, but her mom was usually pretty honest.

Torgo · Mar 31, 2010

Hedgetrimmer said:
I feel something like that is part of the writer's creation. If you want to capitalize it, do so. I've read books (both 1st and 3rd) in which the writer caps all kinds of things, even emotions. "When she saw them holding hands, all she felt was pure, unabated Jealousy." Some rules of language shouldn't be broken, but this seems to fall more under the umbrella of style rather than hard grammar rules.

I must respectfully disagree; I don't think there's any justification for capitalising 'jealousy' there... I suppose you could make a case that by capping it it makes it feel more imposing, but I don't buy it. How does Jealousy differ from jealousy? If it doesn't, it doesn't need the distinction of the capital letter.

As far as I'm concerned, you only use caps for proper names. Toothpaste has it right.

Alanna B. · Mar 31, 2010

I don't feel like that is a valid reason not to read an MS further. That is such a simple fix. If you're reading this, I'm sorry that happened Sissybaby

.

TnTexas · Mar 31, 2010

I agree with Smish and Toothpaste. I don't see a problem with capitalizing it, but you would need to be consistent with it. I'm sorry the agent got hung up on it.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 31, 2010

Torgo said:
I must respectfully disagree; I don't think there's any justification for capitalising 'jealousy' there... I suppose you could make a case that by capping it it makes it feel more imposing, but I don't buy it. How does Jealousy differ from jealousy? If it doesn't, it doesn't need the distinction of the capital letter.

As far as I'm concerned, you only use caps for proper names. Toothpaste has it right.

Hey, I didn't say this was my style. I personally don't use language that way, but I assume the writer was attempting to elevate the word to something larger. She did this throughout the book with different words and was quite consistent in her technique. And it's actually a very good book (The Underneath). It was a National Book Award finalist and a Newbery Honor. I'm just saying. Anything is doable when you do it with purpose and do it well.

Torgo · Mar 31, 2010

Oh I didn't think it was. If I were her editor though she wouldn't be getting away with any of that!

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 31, 2010

Torgo said:
Oh I didn't think it was. If I were her editor though she wouldn't be getting away with any of that!

What has she gotten away with? Misusing the rules of the English language? Hardly. Perhaps if she were writing a critical essay or a master thesis, then I might be inclined to agree. But fiction is creative writing, and so if she's guilty of anything, it's merely having taken creative license with her art. And I tip my hat to that. Too many writers get so hung up on the rules that they sometimes write too cautiously and end up with something totally void of personal style.

Kathi Appelt is a college professor. She teaches creative writing at two schools. Obviously she knows her parts of speech, what should and should not be capitalized. But she doesn't let herself be confined by the rules. She twists them in such a way as to make the language in the book all her own. Should an unpublished writer looking to break in take such a risk? Maybe, maybe not. Every writer is different. But I seriously doubt Ms. Appelt's editor is berating herself for allowing such an unconventional use of words to make it into print. My bet is that she's begging her to write another book.

sissybaby · Mar 31, 2010

In my case the agent was having an issue with the fact that I referred to the parents as Mom and Dad throughout the manuscript. But, because it wasn't in 1st person POV, she said that was wrong, which, technically, I have to agree with. Mary Kole just commented on the same issue on her blog yesterday, but I believe in her case it was the fact that someone had capitalized Mother and Father in a little different way.

Anyway, I did go back and change the entire ms. to "her mom" and "her dad", but in the process I got frustrated with it because sometimes it was "their mom" and "their dad" or "his mom" and "his dad" because the MC had siblings.

So I changed it back to the way I originally did it. Heck, it's my book, and so far it isn't going anywhere anyway, so I just got fed up.

The point that bothered me was the agent's immediate rejection of my work based on the fact that I capitalized Mom and Dad. Okay, I understand it's a pet peeve, but it is certainly something fairly easily changed.

But you have to be careful not to offend someone with your style, I guess. At least now I know to NEVER present someone to that particular agent in that form, so it was helpful in that way.

I understand your frustration, Irene, only too well. Good luck with the rewrites!

Kitty Pryde · Mar 31, 2010

My opinion: the third person Mom and Dad as names thing makes the story sound like it's for a younger audience. It's like something I would expect in a picture book or chapter book. If I saw it in a lower MG novel, it would make me think of a more immature sort of MC. I can't think of any upper MG novels that use it. Anyone?

It feels especially little-kiddish to me because it sort of implies the inability on the part of the character and possibly the reader to realize that one's mom and dad are not in fact named Mom and Dad, that they are just one mom and dad in a giant sea of parents.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 31, 2010

Sissy, I hope you didn't think I was referring to you when I wrote this: Too many writers get so hung up on the rules that they sometimes write too cautiously and end up with something totally void of personal style. I was only speaking in a general sense. You know I think your stuff has tons of flavor.

Toothpaste · Mar 31, 2010

Uh . . . just have to comment that I used the capitilisations of words in the middle of a sentence technique, and very much so on purpose. It's a technique you see in a lot of MG books, especially the classics, and is done to emphasize.

In my very first paragraph I refer to my main character as having an Excellent Sense of Humour.

Maybe you have never encountered it personally, but it's like when you're having a conversation with someone and they say, "I was jealous with a capital J."

Just because something doesn't follow the exact rules of grammar does not mean we can't use it in a novel. Otherwise dialogue would be ridiculously stilted - I like my sentence fragments thank you very much. Anything goes in writing, as long as you know what you're doing and realise what you're doing. It might not be to everyone's taste, but to out and out say it's wrong, well . . . I'll out and out say that that's wrong

.

Sissy, I'll also firmly disagree with the agent, and say that it isn't technically right at all that you are only allowed to do that in first person. Like I already said, if you are using the word to replace a name, then you capitalise it. I'm glad that agent rejected you, quite frankly, you wouldn't want to work with someone like that

.

sissybaby · Mar 31, 2010

Hedgetrimmer - not at all. thought never crossed my mind. I was only trying to explain how the whole thing played out to begin with.

Sometimes I see Mom and Dad, or mom and dad, almost like the word "said". I tend to just gloss over it, so it wasn't a big thing for me to refer to them as proper nouns, even though the story is written in 3rd person POV. I realize it's grammatically incorrect, but so is so much other stuff these days. I just didn't see why it was such a big deal at the time - still don't, that's why I kept it like I had it.

sissybaby · Mar 31, 2010

thanks, toothpaste. Our posts crossed over each other.

You're right about the agent, too.

shadowwalker · Mar 31, 2010

While I can understand the "gray area" with mom/dad, I have to say that capitalization for 'effect' is a turnoff for me as a reader. If a word should have emphasis, shouldn't that be in the way it's used within the sentence? I guess I'm thinking along the lines of "Get out of here!" he screamed. Screamed is kind of unnecessary if the proper context for the statement has been built. But using capitalization for emphasis is something that catches my eye in a not good way - taking me out of the story.

Toothpaste · Mar 31, 2010

Shall I give you an example of what I'm talking about? You still might not like it, but your comparison to the "he screamed" thing is totally off, so I at least want you to understand how it is often used. I will use examples from my own work, which I realise thus gives you permission to rip it apart. I am well aware it is not a technique everyone likes, and that's cool, I just want it to be understood. I will say the reason I like the technique is that it creates a pause before you read the word, which is something we do when speaking aloud to give something an extra emphasis. At any rate, if overused the technique can definitely grate, and I do know that many really think it's old fashioned etc. Still, here's some examples:

So let's say many weeks have passed since the family friendship between Alex and her uncle and Mr. Underwood had been solidified, so that we can get the story moving and tell you of a Very Important Night.

You might have noticed that he looked Odd, or Unsettling, without quite knowing why, as often we cannot place exactly the reason we don't like a person.

And all of this, the dangerous men, Mr. Underwood's caffeine addiction along with his home being destroyed and Alex and her uncle's not, is all leading to an Important Development in our story. For, late that same night, having nowhere else to go and not enough money to stay in a hotel, Mr. Underwood arrived at Alex's uncle's doorknob shop and asked if he could stay. And this is an Important Development because I suppose you could say that this is where our story Truly Begins.

shadowwalker · Mar 31, 2010

Toothpaste said:
Shall I give you an example of what I'm talking about?

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. And I have to say, I stick by my statements. It's a bit like saying the reader doesn't have brains enough to 'catch your drift' unless you put a 'visual' in there. Take the capitalization out and I can concentrate more on what's actually going on - which, incidentally, is intriguing.

Toothpaste · Mar 31, 2010

Okay cool. That's not at all my intent obviously (and anyone who thinks I think kids don't have brains enough to figure stuff out seriously does not know me), to me it's about creating voice, playing with words and rhythm, but really it doesn't matter, it's how you feel. Just wanted to make sure you understood what was being discussed which you obviously do.

TnTexas · Mar 31, 2010

sissybaby said:
Sometimes I see Mom and Dad, or mom and dad, almost like the word "said". I tend to just gloss over it, so it wasn't a big thing for me to refer to them as proper nouns, even though the story is written in 3rd person POV. I realize it's grammatically incorrect, but so is so much other stuff these days. I just didn't see why it was such a big deal at the time - still don't, that's why I kept it like I had it.

I don't think it's grammatically incorrect. I think it's just a strange pet peeve for that particular editor.

MsJudy · Mar 31, 2010

1) Toothpaste is right. Using the capitals as she does creates the voice and the feel of her story. It takes you to another time and place. It adds a layer of don't-take-me-too-seriously, which then allows her to do things like have her MC kill people and almost get tortured without it being a gruesome book. It is STYLE, and novel-writing is all about style.

2) The agent is wrong. Mom and Dad are characters. To the MC, those are their names. If it's a close-in POV, then using "his mother" or "Mrs. Smith" or "Elinore" creates distance from the character, a POV shift out of the MC's head. I've tried it, and it creates awkward places where you can't use "he" because the MC is also a "he," so you say "his dad" over and over again, and...bleah. Clumsy, clunky writing that no one wants to read.

sissybaby, would you mind PMing me that agent's name? I use Mom and Dad in my current novel, and I don't want to waste my time sending a query to that person.

Kitty Pryde · Mar 31, 2010

JudScotKev said:
1) Toothpaste is right. Using the capitals as she does creates the voice and the feel of her story. It takes you to another time and place. It adds a layer of don't-take-me-too-seriously, which then allows her to do things like have her MC kill people and almost get tortured without it being a gruesome book. It is STYLE, and novel-writing is all about style.

2) The agent is wrong. Mom and Dad are characters. To the MC, those are their names. If it's a close-in POV, then using "his mother" or "Mrs. Smith" or "Elinore" creates distance from the character, a POV shift out of the MC's head. I've tried it, and it creates awkward places where you can't use "he" because the MC is also a "he," so you say "his dad" over and over again, and...bleah. Clumsy, clunky writing that no one wants to read.

Speaking of style...don't you think it's a matter of style to use Mom and Dad in close 3rd POV, or not? There's a certain age where we stop saying to people outside our family (like friends or teachers) sentences like, "Mom made brownies last night," and start saying "My mom made brownies last night," instead. The Mom and Dad thing only gets used WITHIN the family after that age (As in, "I'm telling Dad!" or "We should buy Mom a new car."

I think it's maybe a theory of mind issue (as in, understanding that "Mom" is not "Mom" to almost everyone in the world). And we also stop SAYING "Mom" and "Dad" to little kids. Like a babysitter of a toddler might say, "Mom is going to be mad if you don't take a bath," but a sitter of a grade school kid wouldn't, she would say "Your mom is going to be mad." And if you said to a thirteen year old "I'm going to tell Mom about this," you would be on the receiving end of a fatal amount of eye-rolling.

That's why I think it says something about the age or maturity level of the protagonist, and why it needs to be a conscious stylistic choice. Or maybe I'm talking nonsense.

Toothpaste · Mar 31, 2010

Well like you said it depends. If it's close third limited or first person, and it's what the character calls her/his parents, then I don't see an issue. I have a YA on submission where the first person narrator refers to her father as "Daddy" and her mom as "Mother". It also, as you say, depends on the relationship the narrator has with other people within the story. So to a stranger it's "My mother", but to her best friend it's just "Mother".

Everything in the end comes down to voice and characterisation. Some may wonder why I chose Daddy and Mother. It was a very deliberate decision. I chose Daddy because the setting is the deep south and daughters there tend to have that kind of relationship with their fathers, and Mother because there's the formality with it, again from that Southern etiquette thing. In my middle grade books though, parents are referred to as "his father" and "his mother". It's all a matter of what suits the story best.

ILSinTexas · Mar 31, 2010

Wow, everyone!

I never expected so many replies to this post, but I've learned some interesting things.

First of all, I'm thinking Kitty Pryde might be right about the age difference thing. But Sissybaby's scene was set in the family car, with only family present. So referring to her mom as Mom, according to Kitty's definition, should be okay.

However, that's not what the agent objected to. It was clear from her wording that she feels Mom and Dad should only be used when writing first person. She said Mom and Dad were not the narrator's mom and dad.

I've read Toothpaste's books (LOVED THEM!) and I had no problem with her taking the liberties she did in her stories. It didn't pull me out, in fact, I liked the 3rd person omni narrator intruding throughout. But shadowwalker has a valid point as well. If these things turn her off as a reader, she obviously wouldn't use them in her own prose. Which is fine. To each his own. When we write, we create our own world -- the way we envision it.

It's interesting how divided this issue is, and I wonder if there is something out there to clarify this. Is there a written rule not to cap mom when you write in 3rd person? Because, that is clearly the reason this agent gave in rejecting Sissy's submission.

And Sissy -- I hope you're not mad at me for bringing this up? I was so confused by the agent's reply to you. I'll PM Judy for you. I don't want to lose you as a beta buddy.

After the dust settles, I'll come back and give rep points to all of you who tried to help.

Thanks everyone!

Irene

Mom and Dad? This one is for Sissybaby

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