, then or , and then or ; then

Status
Not open for further replies.

commasplicer

Banned
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
123
Reaction score
9
Does anyone have a preference?

I learned grammar, then I chopped my ear off.
I learned grammar, and then I chopped my ear off.
I learned grammar; then I chopped my ear off.
 

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,577
Reaction score
7,220
Location
Wash., D.C. area
I say the second. The first is acceptable, but not as good, and the last is the least correct.
 

claws2

Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
824
Reaction score
110
My two cents worth. :)

Does anyone have a preference?

I learned grammar, then I chopped my ear off. (comma splice. Some might find this okay (or prefer it in some situations) because the two sentences are so short. Refer to your favorite style guides for what they say.)
I learned grammar, and then I chopped my ear off. (completely proper. Usually, I'd prefer this.)
I learned grammar; then I chopped my ear off. (completely proper. Context will tell you if this is a good use of a semicolon.)
You could also consider: "I learned grammar and then chopped my ear off."

Now I made my comments in your excerpt in regards to "grammar," the way I understand grammar.

When you write fiction, ya kin do it anyway ya want. But realize what the guidelines--w.r.t., grammar and style manuals--are when ya are doing it. :)

When you look at commercially published books, you'll see lots of grammar guidelines and rules being broken or stretched (now and then, or a lot). Sometimes, some of those authors (and their editors) are aware of that and are intentionally doing what they are doing because they know what they are doing. But more often, the authors and their editors aren't aware their grammar is bad. imo.

Now as to "then": well, it ain't a conjunction, it are a adverb thingee. But often, you'll see prose punctuated as though it was a conjunction. And often, you'll also see the conjunction "and" missing from sentences. Both of those practices often produce a "stacking" of predicates--where the individual predicates of a compound predicate are comma spliced together. Editors see that a lot in submissions by aspiring writers, and well, them editors sometimes complain about that in their blogs. Just in case ya wanna know ... :)


Aside: Perhaps ya ought to get yourself a "readable" grammar book. Just sayin'.

imo.
 

PeterL

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
91
The first is best. "And then" fits in breathtaking action to string things together, but it is horrible in ordinary narrative. The third is wrong.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I think 'then' is hard when considering commas splices. I think it feels kind of conjunctiony, but not enough ;) So I'd make it a semicolon or add an 'and' somewhere, if not rephrase entirely.

Why is the semicolon one wrong, PeterL?

PS - I usually drop the required comma before conjunctions if the sentence seems to flow fine without it. I'm not recommending that, just explaining my posts ;) I figure most people don't remember that rule! ;)
 
Last edited:

PeterL

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
91
Why is the semicolon one wrong, PeterL?

Because using a semicolon with a conjunction is generally wrong. One should use a comma.

PS - I usually drop the required comma before conjunctions if the sentence seems to flow fine without it. I'm not recommending that, just explaining my posts ;) I figure most people don't remember that rule! ;)


I suppose that someone who ignores that rule that requires a comma between independent clauses might think that a semicolon would be right in this situation. Neglecing the comma makes it look like the clause is dependent, and that usually changes the meaning. The comma does make a pause, and that's what is required. The rule isn't for appearance; it is for meaning.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
Because using a semicolon with a conjunction is generally wrong. One should use a comma.

PS - I usually drop the required comma before conjunctions if the sentence seems to flow fine without it. I'm not recommending that, just explaining my posts ;) I figure most people don't remember that rule! ;)


I suppose that someone who ignores that rule that requires a comma between independent clauses might think that a semicolon would be right in this situation. Neglecing the comma makes it look like the clause is dependent, and that usually changes the meaning. The comma does make a pause, and that's what is required. The rule isn't for appearance; it is for meaning.

I was explaining my forum posts, because they are different than my formal writing, or writing to be published. I always try to note that here, because this forum is about the correct way to do it :)

I'm still not convinced that 'then' is the same as 'but' or 'and,' btw ;) I'm going with some of the others on this one, respectfully :)
 

PeterL

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
91
I'm still not convinced that 'then' is the same as 'but' or 'and,'


Whether "then" is similar to "but" is not relevant. The relevant thing is that both would lead into an independent clause. "Then" is actually an adverb most of the time. How one deals with "then" seems to be more variable than for other words.

The more I think about it, the more I think that using the semicolon by itself would create more of a stop than necessary. I really hate reading "and then", and that combination is redundant, so it should be avoided. The semicolon is rare.
 
Last edited:

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
Does anyone have a preference?

I learned grammar, then I chopped my ear off.
I learned grammar, and then I chopped my ear off.
I learned grammar; then I chopped my ear off.

I learned grammar, and then I chopped my ear off.

You can get away with the first, but it's bad grammar, and can get you in trouble.

The third is just sad.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
"Sad" :D

It's grammatically correct, though, right? Granted, those sentences don't sound nice done that way :)

Oh, I'll just go read the darned semicolon thread, but I swear folks are too uptight about the poor things ;)
 

PeterL

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
91
I just realized that the comma before "then" should be preferable. In that use "then" functions as a conjunction; although many of the grammar books do not say that. Also, if the then is part of an "if-then" proposition, then it should be preceded by a comma, because the comma marks the end of the condition and the beginning of the conclusion.
 

Lance_in_Shanghai

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
216
Reaction score
8
The first is a comma splice since 'then' isn't a conjunction, as ALL authoritative grammar books will attest.
The second is fine.
The third is faulty (a semicolon can join two short independent clauses that are closely related). It seems nothing about cutting off the ear is actually connected with learning grammar, so don't try to connect those phrases. You would likely find them in different paragraphs rather than stuffed into the same sentence.

We seem to be faced with a decision: Be uptight or throw out all the rules per as me done did ever and ways all.
 
Last edited:

virginia

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
64
Reaction score
12
Location
London, UK
Website
www.travelswithlucy.blogspot.com
Does anyone have a preference?

I learned grammar, then I chopped my ear off.
I learned grammar, and then I chopped my ear off.
I learned grammar; then I chopped my ear off.

How bad am I? My first reaction to this question was that I'd probably write: 'I learnt grammar. Then I chopped my ear off'.

Then again, I might have written: 'I learnt grammar... Then I chopped my ear off'.

To do it your way - and to answer respectfully! - I think I'd go with: 'I learned grammar, then I chopped my ear off'.

Or: 'I learned grammar, then chopped my ear off'.

You know what? This is the sort of dilemma I often spend days with. You have my sympathy, 'commasplicer'!

Virginia
 

Lance_in_Shanghai

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
216
Reaction score
8
If "then" functions as a conjunction, how can we match it with another conjunction "and" or "but"? Then is the time counterpart to there (location). Neither then nor there is a conjunction. Fifty years ago, our teachers and grammar scholars objected to beginning a sentence with a conjunction (the meaning is "join together", so they reasoned it cannot be the beginning). They would never have objected to beginning a sentence with "Then" or "There" since neither is a conjunction. Of course, many people would write their own grammar guide with or without scholarship. Others don't need no stinking guide.
 

claws2

Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
824
Reaction score
110
(Bolding mine--claws2)
I just realized that the comma before "then" should be preferable. In that use "then" functions as a conjunction; although many of the grammar books do not say that. Also, if the then is part of an "if-then" proposition, then it should be preceded by a comma, because the comma marks the end of the condition and the beginning of the conclusion.

(Bolding mine--claws2)
Or to correct the rules. "Then" functions as a conjunction.

PeterL,
Would you please provide a vetted source for your claim that the word "then" can function as a conjunction?


And what type of conjunction could the word "then" function as?
Can the word "then" function as a coordinating conjunction?
Or a subordinating conjunction?


Do you think the word "then" can function as a conjunctive adverb?
(Hint: Say "yes" to this one. :) )

Also, I've got a vetted grammar book here (Mark Lester and Larry Beason, The McGraw-Hill Handbook of English Grammar and Usage, 2004), in a section where it discusses conjunctive adverbs, that says, (on pages 67-68)
It is not correct to use a comma to join two independent clauses without a coordinating conjunction. The presence of the conjunctive adverb changes nothing. Conjunctive adverbs are not conjunctions. They are adverbs, and adverbs by themselves have no power to join independent clauses with a comma. Just using a comma (with or without a conjunctive adverb) to join independent clauses is a common punctuation error called a comma splice. Also notice that conjunctive adverbs are always followed by commas.

Conjunctive adverbs are easily confused with subordinating conjunctions--flag words used to signal the beginning of adverb clauses. . . .


imo.

Aside: In dictionaries and grammar books, I've seen the word "then" described as an adverb, or a noun, or an adjective. But never as a conjunction.
 
Last edited:

bonitakale

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
1,485
Reaction score
165
Location
Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Website
www.bkedits.com
I would never think of 'then' as a conjunction, and if I wanted to have a comma between the two parts, I'd use 'and then.' Otherwise, a semicolon or a new sentence.

Really don't think there's any question that the first is wrong, the other two right.

Interesting that 'and then' should bother people. You certainly can't say that, "I learned grammar, and then I chopped my ear off," means the same as, "I learned grammar, and I chopped my ear off."
 

Captcha

Banned
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
4,456
Reaction score
637
Seems like the consensus is being developed, but I'll add my two cents anyway -

I agree, 'then' isn't a conjunction. Therefore, 1 is grammatically wrong. 2 and 3 are grammatically correct.

Stylistically, of course, there's room for argument.
 

Keithy

Just keep swimming
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 23, 2017
Messages
1,547
Reaction score
76
Location
Ireland
I do try to stick with the rules on this, but at times the rules don't make sense. To me using "and" tends to imply two actions are being performed (almost) simultaneously, whereas "then" implies some sort of sequence (action 1 then action 2). "and then" implies the actions are both sequential and simultaneous. That's impossible (isn't it?)

For instance, "Fred was singing, and then he collapsed unconscious." is grammatically correct, but suggests he was singing while unconscious, which is absurd.

Don't get me started on "I will try and do it." How is striving to complete a task AND simultaneously finishing that task possible? You can't make an assault on Mount Everest and be at the top at the same time. Yet I see popular authors using this ugly construct, which I find inexplicable.
 

Raison

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
142
Reaction score
7
Depending on usage, "then" is sometimes a conjunctive adverb or an adverbial conjunction. Regardless, it works more like "however," not like a coordinating conjunction. Thus, a comma alone before it in the example given in #1 is not sufficient punctuation. As others have said, #1 is technically punctuated incorrectly, while #2 and #3 are both correct. As for style, you can break the rules, of course, but #1 pains me the way it's written. If I didn't want to be a stickler for the rules and use "and" or a semicolon, I would at least drop "I" in #1.
 
Last edited:

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
I don't like any of them, but of these examples 2 and 3 are not wrong, but i don't like "and then", except for breath taking action. I would rewrite it in a different form, and hope that the OP learned something in the last seven years. This zombie thread probably is rotting away by now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.