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Thread: JTW Pressco, Inc.

  1. #1
    What's up?? sharla's Avatar
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    JTW Pressco, Inc.

    Anyone heard of this? Is it a vanity press? They sent ME an email saying they saw me in PMarketplace and are interested in seeing my ms and that they would waive publishing fees. Anyone have some info?
    Sharla Lovelace
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  2. #2
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    That they have publishing fees to begin with, even though you get to have them waved, is probably a good indication that they're vanity. Do you have a link?

    ETA: Also, if they haven't yet read your mss. why would they offer to wave their fees? unless you're already published and they've read your other books.
    Last edited by Sydewinder; 02-26-2010 at 03:00 AM.

  3. #3
    Tired and Disillusioned Momento Mori's Avatar
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    The only things I can find on them on Google is the link to their page on Publishers Marketplace here. They give this as their website but there's nothing up there:

    http://www.jtwpressco.com

    There's no such thing as a stealth publisher, so the fact that they've got no web presence at all (not even industry mentions) is cause for caution.

    Then there's the fact that they're talking about charging fees in the first place (let alone waiving them).

    And the point that they're soliciting manuscripts from people on the net in what is essentially a spam situation. Real publishers don't need to ask people to submit to them.

    There's nothing to indicate that they can get books into stores (none of their distribution avenues guarantees shelf space and unless they do a deal with the chains, they won't get it). That in turn suggests that they won't be doing an awful lot to effectively market and publicise a title.

    Finally, the fact that they advertise as publishing in France in 2010, suggests to me that they may be looking to take all rights in your book - both territories and eBook.

    So basically, what I'm saying is no.

    MM

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    I might be wrong, but... the only books indicated on their PM site are written by one, James White - what do you want to bet that his middle name starts with a T. ... JTWpressco. hmmmm... self-publishing venture?

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    wouldn't be the first time.
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  7. #7
    What's up?? sharla's Avatar
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    Yep, kinda what I was thinking. Never had a publisher chase me down before, and I looked on PM but didn't feel that I knew enough about what to look for. I knew the fee thing was a flag too.

    That's what is so great about this thread!

    Good catch, Sydewinder, on the JTW James White mystery...I'm willing to bet you're right!
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  8. #8
    Such a nasty woman SuperModerator Old Hack's Avatar
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    Sharla: they chased you down? How? That's not how most good publishers work....

  9. #9
    An Author in Search of a Plot Catadmin's Avatar
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    Interestingly enough, I just got an email from him too. Redirected to my private email from my website email address.

    I don't usually post emails sent to me, but given the research necessity, here's a text snippet of my email:

    ... I am interested in some of your fiction work...If you could send us a sample of a new manuscript...I can look it over for you and if it is as good as your Blue Kingdom,we would be willing to publish it for free...
    He goes on to say his company's website is currently down but he expects it up by Friday. He sent the email to me on Thursday.

    The text indicates to me that the email was written by a person, not a bot program. Also, that he is doing some minimal research. The "free" comment worries me a little, so I have replied to him, thanking him for his interest and asking what he means by it. We'll see if he replies.

    I do have an entry on Publishers' Marketplace, so that might be where he got my email & website addresses from. I'll let you know what I hear back.

    EDIT: http://www.publishersmarketplace.com...jtwpresscoinc/ is his PM page. This may be legit (new company looking for new voices), but I'm going to check with a few other sources to see if anyone has heard of the company.
    Last edited by Catadmin; 02-28-2010 at 03:31 AM. Reason: Adding link
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  10. #10
    An Author in Search of a Plot Catadmin's Avatar
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    I take back my previous "possibly legit" comment. Their website is back up.

    http://www.jtwpressco.com/about.php

    JTW Pressco Inc. was founded in 2009 and by author and businesswoman Donna Venzi. Donna was inspired when working closely with James Timothy White who was a close friend from the high school. The company hired Drew Easler from Orlando, Florida as its Chief Editor in 2010 to run and expand its operations. The company currently publishes a variety of books including fiction, self help, adventure, war, mystery, romance, non-fiction, autobiographies and so on. Contact us (hyperlink) to continue publish your book with us today!

    We distribute to major online book stores such as Amazon.com and we also make your book available to other major online stores Through a wholesaler, Ingram Book Group and Baker & Taylor, on occasion, if the book is a best seller we will hire an independent distributor to sell your books to store front locations.

    JTW Pressco Inc. does not charge to publish your book; however, if you are uncomfortable with guaranteeing a minimal amount of book sales (currently set at only 1,000 copies) then to cover our basic costs we ask that you pay (hyperlink to ‘buy’ button) so we can continue to provide the most amazing services to our authors. Our goal is to have win-win situation that help the author and our investors.

    The majority shareholder and financier is Eurotex Finanz Inc. (KFE) which is listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange and has holdings in several companies in many different industries and is independent from JTW Pressco Inc.
    How can anyone guarantee sales?
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  11. #11
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    You can "guarantee sales" by buying the books yourself.

    Selling books is the publisher's job, not yours.

    That they're asking (in barely literate prose) for you to either sell a thousand copies of your book, or buy a thousand copies yourself, means that they're an out-and-out vanity press.

    Avoid.

    The majority shareholder and financier is Eurotex Finanz Inc. (KFE) which is listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange and has holdings in several companies in many different industries and is independent from JTW Pressco Inc.
    Yeah? Let's look at this press release from a month ago:


    Jan 25, 2010 4:18:00 PM

    CALGARY, ALBERTA--(Marketwire - Jan. 25, 2010) - Rapidly growing worldwide innovator of financial products and services, Eurotex Finanz Inc. (FRANKFURT:KFE)(KFE), has been accepted for listing on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange trading under ticker KFE and first day of trading is January 5, 2010.

    Eurotex is headed by financial prodigy James Timothy White of Calgary, Alberta, Canada. At age 25, James now holds the honour of being the youngest CEO Frankfurt Stock Exchange-listed company (the former youngest CEO is Jochen Zeitz; he became CEO of Puma at age 30). Starting in landscaping and snow removal, White made his first million by the age of 16. He says his budding empire's rapid growth is based upon his goal of helping change the lives of working middle class men and women through better investing.
    I wonder how independent JTW Pressco really is from Eurotex Finanz, given that Donna Venzi is listed as Eurotex Finanz's head of Business Development.
    Last edited by James D. Macdonald; 02-28-2010 at 05:58 AM.

  12. #12
    Tired and Disillusioned Momento Mori's Avatar
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    JTW Pressco is a vanity press. If you check out the Publishing Your Book Now page it gives you a submission form, at the bottom of which are two options:

    1. Publish For Free

    2. Pay $750.

    There are question marks next to each option. On the Publish For Free option it states the following:

    Publish For Free: Your title must sell 1000 books wihtin [sic] 12 months or you will be changed [sic] a penalty of $3.00 per book not sold. For example, if you sell 100 books you will be changed [sic] $3.00 per book for 900 books.
    Using their calculation, you'd be charged $2,700 for the privilege of being "published for free".

    Pay $750: You do not have any minimum quotas, this is the same as being self-published with the exception that we provide better customer service, plus we are fun to work with.
    Apart from the fact that self publishing does not have to involve the payment of a fee, for $750 I would want a hulluva lot of fun from these people, preferably gold-plated and of my choosing.

    JTW Pressco News Page: (BOLDING MINE)
    Welcome to JTW Pressco! We are proud to have confident authors interested in publishing with us. We are completely different than most publishers, both traditional and vanity. We don’t ask the author for any money!
    Except from on our submissions page, where we ask you for money!

    JTW Pressco News Page:
    We ask that authors commit to working just as hard as us to make their book a complete success and promise to sell at least 1000 books in 12 months or less – it’s a pretty simple concept, but will will help many first or established authors get noticed and hopefully make them a success.
    How are authors going to get noticed and become a success when JTW Pressco doesn't seem to stock books in bookstores or indeed indicate that it has any kind of marketing plan beyond encouraging/requiring authors to buy their own books? On the front page of the website, it says this:

    JTW Pressco:
    We distribute to major online book stores such as Amazon.com and we also make your book available to other major online stores Through a wholesaler, Ingram Book Group and Baker & Taylor, on occasion, if the book is a best seller we will hire an independent distributor to sell your books to store front locations.
    This seems a little backward to me. In essence, you would have to try and make your book a bestseller without anyone offering your book to store front locations - and if you do somehow manage to make your book a bestseller without such support, JTW Press will then give you the support to get your book in store front locations ...

    JTW Pressco About Us Page:
    The majority shareholder and financier is Eurotex Finanz Inc. (KFE) which is listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange and has holdings in several companies in many different industries and is independent from JTW Pressco Inc.
    I went to the Deutsche Borse website (which will give you market details on all listed companies and is available in English). Since commencing trading on 5 January 2010, the stock price for Eurotex has remained a consistent EURO 1.

    Although its shares are available for sale on the open market, they're listed on the Second Quotation Board. According to the Deutsche Borse's information page, companies listed on the Second Quotation Board are those whose shares "are already listed or included at another international or domestic trading venue".

    In essence therefore, the Deutsche Borse assumes that the due diligence and market information for the company has already been carried out for the international/domestic trading venue on which the company's shares were first traded/listed.

    Unfortunately, there was no information on this on the Deutsche Borse's website on where Eurotex first listed its shares/made them available to trade. This in itself is not unusual because the Second Quotation Board essentially acts as a mechanism to the facilitate the trading of shares.

    For the sake of clarity it is perfectly normal and reputable business practice for companies to list shares on other exchanges for the purposes of raising capital so I don't want anyone to think that I am suggesting otherwise. However, the fact of the listing does not and should not be taken to suggest that the company itself has been authorised or verified by the Deutsche Borse because shares are traded at risk (as they would if you traded on AIM in the UK).

    James D. Macdonald:
    I wonder how independent JTW Pressco really is from Eurotex Finanz, given that Donna Venzi is listed as Eurotex Finanz's head of Business Development.
    While they will be independent legal personalities, JTW Press and Eurotex evidently share the same office space/telephone number because the contact phone number for each organisation is the same:

    Telephone Number for JTW Press: 1 866 745 9131

    Fax Number for JTW Press: 1 866 728 5496
    Telephone Number for EurotexFinanz: 1 866 745 9131

    Fax Number for EurotexFinanz: 1-866-728-5496
    You'd also question the amount of independence JTW Press would have given that the initials JTW are the same as for James Timothy White, who happens to be the President, CEO and Chairman of EurotexFinanz.

    The EurotexFinanz gives the following biographical information for Donna Venzi:

    Donna Venzi, age 24, is Director and Business Development for Eurotex Finanz Inc. Donna completed an honours undergraduate degree in Canadian Studies from the University of Calgary in the department of Communications and Culture in 2008. Her honours thesis explored the convergence between indigenous ways of knowing and post-classical physics. Donna has several years of experience in finance, customer relations and independent academic research and editorial work. Prior to joining Eurotex Finanz Inc. Donna ran her own financial planning practice. She has completed the "Investment Funds in Canada" course and the "Life License Qualification Program." Donna was previously on the 2007 editorial board for scholarly journal, History of Intellectual Culture (ISSN 1492-7810), and currently holds a seat on the board of directors for the James Timothy White Better Life Foundation.
    While this is all laudable, there is nothing in that biography that suggests she has any experience of the publishing industry. Unfortunately, there is no information on the JTW Press website suggesting that the company has other directors who do have the requisite experience.

    Finally, I do wonder why a financial services company like Eurotex would be going into the vanity publishing business in the first place. Checking out the EurotexFinanz website, I'm not seeing the obvious synergies or experience on the board that would make this an slam dunk opportunity.

    MM
    Last edited by Momento Mori; 02-28-2010 at 07:19 PM.

  13. #13
    An Author in Search of a Plot Catadmin's Avatar
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    Several members of the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers agree with you, Jim. And two of them caught the typos I was too tired to see when I saw the website.

    So, bad, bad, bad.

    Still, it'll be interesting to see what the response to my email reply is. If they reply at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momento Mori View Post
    Finally, I do wonder why a financial services company like Eurotex would be going into the vanity publishing business in the first place. Checking out the EurotexFinanz website, I'm not seeing the obvious synergies or experience on the board that would make this an slam dunk opportunity.

    MM
    My guess, either the business isn't doing too well itself, or they thought 'how hard could it be?'.
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    An Author in Search of a Plot Catadmin's Avatar
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    They accept money from investors for projects they have "for sale". Look at their website and click on the "Projects for Sale" link. Both of them in Alberta (same location as the company).

    This screams "Pyramid Scheme" to me. Or something just as worse bad. Basic fraud. They're just trying to get money from people for everything they can think of.

    EDIT: Look at me! I'm a writer with bad grammar! @=Pbt. Bleargh. @=) Striking through worse and fixing the sentence.
    Last edited by Catadmin; 03-01-2010 at 05:36 AM.
    Brandie Tarvin
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  16. #16
    What's up?? sharla's Avatar
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    Wow, what a racket. And he did find me on Publishers Marketplace, and I haven't published anything yet, so I'm sure they see unpublished authors as easy prey.

    That's eye-opening!
    Sharla Lovelace
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  17. #17
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    First, I need to advise you that before you go making remarks that are simply untrue, you conduct your due diligence. I helped develop the company to give authors a chance to publish their work if they don't have the money to do so themselves - trying to help people.

    As a publisher, JTW Pressco has costs with each book; therefore, if they didn't ask for a commitment the business would fail. Moreover, as a new publisher they are aggressive in our approach, unlink most - this does not mean they accept every book.

    I have published books with traditional publishers as well as self-publishing companies. Seeing both sides of the publishing industry gave me the idea to take the best components of the business and combine them to create something which can truly help authors. I am in the process transferring all of my current titles with AuthorHouse to JTW Pressco Inc. - not because I have helped create it, but because they care about their authors.

    They are upfront with their fees and terms of commitment so as to not take advantage of authors in this business.

    Eurotex Finanz sees the publishing industry as a good business and therefore made a strategic investment in the company.


    When Bill Gates and his associates invented the computer, everyone told him it was a terrible idea and that it would not meet success, like JTW Pressco. Their intention is to help authors get their work published without money (we ask for no money up front - unlike most) as a result, they ask for a commitment - it's simple! If you are not confident in or willing to work toward promoting your book, then this company is simply not for you - they also make this VERY clear on their website.

    JTW Pressco Inc is always open to ideas on how to make their business better for their authors, so if you have any questions, comments, suggestions, or concerns, please email us at info@jtwpressco.com
    Last edited by JamesTWhite; 03-02-2010 at 03:50 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesTWhite View Post
    First, I need to advise you that before you go making remarks that are simply untrue, you conduct your due diligence. I helped develop the company to give authors a chance to publish their work if they don't have the money to do so themselves - trying to help people.

    As a publisher, JTW Pressco has costs with each book; therefore, if they didn't ask for a commitment the business would fail. Moreover, as a new publisher they are aggressive in our approach, unlink most - this does not mean they accept every book.

    I have published books with traditional publishers as well as self-publishing companies. Seeing both sides of the publishing industry gave me the idea to take the best components of the business and combine them to create something which can truly help authors. I am in the process transferring all of my current titles with AuthorHouse to JTW Pressco Inc. - not because I have helped create it, but because they care about their authors.

    They are upfront with their fees and terms of commitment so as to not take advantage of authors in this business.

    Eurotex Finanz sees the publishing industry as a good business and therefore made a strategic investment in the company.


    When Bill Gates and his associates invented the computer, everyone told him it was a terrible idea and that it would not meet success, like JTW Pressco. Their intention is to help authors get their work published without money (we ask for no money up front - unlike most) as a result, they ask for a commitment - it's simple! If you are not confident in or willing to work toward promoting your book, then this company is simply not for you - they also make this VERY clear on their website.

    JTW Pressco Inc is always open to ideas on how to make their business better for their authors, so if you have any questions, comments, suggestions, or concerns, please email us at info@jtwpressco.com
    Couple things:
    1) author house is not a commercial publisher - it's self publishing. If you've been published by a commercial press, could you please tell us the name? it would help us establish the kind of experience you and your business associates have in the industry. right now it appears as though you don't have any, and maybe that's not the case.
    2) Bill gates did not invent the computer
    3) no one is against companies that are vanity presses, such as JTW Pressco. Rather they are against those that hide in the grass and pretend they're something other than they are. I think anyone who goes to your site can see that you're a pay-to-play publisher, so I wouldn't worry too much about people getting the wrong idea. Just keep everything above board.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sydewinder; 03-02-2010 at 04:51 AM.

  19. #19
    aka Sadistic Mistress Mi-chan M.R.J. Le Blanc's Avatar
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    Wait wait wait wait.

    JTW Pressco asks for no money upfront, but they're upfront about their fees? In one breath you're saying that you want to give a chance to authors who can't afford to pay but in another you're saying JTW Pressco charges fees?

    Please don't fool around with wording. Either you're honest like Lulu and require money to publish, or you're a vanity outfit. Decide which one you're going to be.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesTWhite View Post
    As a publisher, JTW Pressco has costs with each book; therefore, if they didn't ask for a commitment the business would fail.
    Then ur doin it rong.

    Random House has costs associated with each book, too. But they don't ask the author for a financial commitment. They have, yanno, their own money. And a business plan. And they've been doing that, and not-failing, for many decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesTWhite View Post
    I am in the process transferring all of my current titles with AuthorHouse to JTW Pressco Inc. - not because I have helped create it, but because they care about their authors.They are upfront with their fees and terms of commitment so as to not take advantage of authors in this business.
    AuthorHouse is upfront about their fees too. Switching from one vanity press to another is hardly an innovative business plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesTWhite View Post
    Eurotex Finanz sees the publishing industry as a good business and therefore made a strategic investment in the company.
    Torstar saw Harlequin Horizons as a good investment, too. It doesn't make it any less of a vanity press or any less of a bad idea for authors.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesTWhite View Post
    When Bill Gates and his associates invented the computer, everyone told him it was a terrible idea and that it would not meet success, like JTW Pressco.
    Bill Gates didn't ask people to send him their computer programs and then pay him to plug them into his machine and then pay him to sell the programs back to them. Bill Gates was inventing a new technology. He was the creative genius. I don't see how the two are comparable.

  21. #21
    Tired and Disillusioned Momento Mori's Avatar
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    Hi, James, and welcome to AW.

    JamesTWhite:
    I need to advise you that before you go making remarks that are simply untrue, you conduct your due diligence
    Fair enough. Which of the remarks made on this discussion thread do you believe to be untrue and could you provide a specific correction?

    JamesTWhite:
    I helped develop the company to give authors a chance to publish their work if they don't have the money to do so themselves - trying to help people.
    How is it helping people to charge them either $750 or (potentially) $3,000 to publish their book?

    JamesTWhite:
    As a publisher, JTW Pressco has costs with each book; therefore, if they didn't ask for a commitment the business would fail. Moreover, as a new publisher they are aggressive in our approach, unlink most - this does not mean they accept every book.
    As a businessman, you must be aware that every business has costs when it first starts up. Most businesses tackle these anticipated costs either through the provision of sufficient equity or the use of a bank loan to finance the initial operation. Publishing is no different.

    There are plenty of small publishers that have started up on the basis of paying their authors for their work and then selling the books onto the public via placement in book stores in order to recoup the same.

    However, from my reading of your website JTPRessco does not seem to have any means in place to secure placement in bookstores and does not seem to want to do so until the author has already ensured that the book is a "bestseller".

    Perhaps you can tell us how JTPressco anticipates that books will become bestsellers?

    Who do you think will be buying books published by JTPressco's authors?

    JamesTWhite:
    I have published books with traditional publishers as well as self-publishing companies.
    Could you give us the titles of those books that you've published with traditional (or rather, commercial publishers) and the identities of those publishers.

    According to the search I did on Amazon.com, the only book I can find under your name is Million Dollar Business Bible: One of the World's Youngest Self-Made Millionaires Provides Essential Start-Up Business Tips So You Can Build Your Million-Dollar Business which was apparently published on 24 February 2009 with AuthorHouse. As you may be aware, AuthorHouse is a vanity publisher and not a traditional (or commercial) publisher.

    JamesTWhite:
    They are upfront with their fees and terms of commitment so as to not take advantage of authors in this business.
    How does an upfront fee not take advantage of authors?

    Do you have the means in place whereby authors can recoup those fees through selling books within store? If not, then surely you would agree that there is potential for those authors to not only pay JTPressco $750 up front, but then be faced with never recouping that money back again through sales.

    How do you see this business model as benefitting authors? Where do you think authors will get a return? And how did this work out for you with the sales for your AuthorHouse book?

    JamesTWhite:
    Eurotex Finanz sees the publishing industry as a good business and therefore made a strategic investment in the company.
    This is refreshing. In an age where the market is predominantly doom and gloom about publishing, what do you see as making it a "good business"?

    Are you aware of the statistics for failues among self-publishing ventures within their first 18 months of operation?

    JamesTWhite:
    When Bill Gates and his associates invented the computer, everyone told him it was a terrible idea and that it would not meet success, like JTW Pressco.
    This is a terrible analogy.

    Bill Gates did not invent the computer. JTW Pressco did not invent vanity or self-publishing.

    JamesTWhite:
    Their intention is to help authors get their work published without money (we ask for no money up front - unlike most) as a result, they ask for a commitment - it's simple!
    This is simply not true, James and I strongly suggest you check out the website for JTWPressco because as at today's date, the Publish Your Book Now page still has an option whereby the author pays $750 up front in return for not facing a 1000 book minimum sales figure.

    JamesTWhite:
    If you are not confident in or willing to work toward promoting your book, then this company is simply not for you - they also make this VERY clear on their website.
    How confident were you in promoting your AuthorHouse book, James and what correlation did you find between the amount of promotion you did and the sales figures you achieved?

    If a publisher either lacks the ability to or has no interest in doing promotion for a book (by which I mean securing bookstore placement as an absolutel minimum), then it does not matter how much promotion the author is willing to do and actually does in practice because they simply cannot achieve the sales necessary for it to make them money.

    JamesTWhite:
    JTW Pressco Inc is always open to ideas on how to make their business better for their authors,
    Don't ask them for fees up front. Don't require them to make a minimum purchase committment (or to guarantee a minimum purchase figure). Make sure that you have the distribution in place to get books into stores.

    I note from the JTW Pressco website that it has now hired Drew Easler.

    JT Pressco Website:
    The company hired Drew Easler from Orlando, Florida as its Chief Editor in 2010 to run and expand its operations.
    Are you able to give us some details on Drew's qualifications and history?

    MM

  22. #22
    Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. kaitie's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who finds something incongruous with the person claiming that he must charge writers because of start-up costs being the same one who wrote a book about starting a business? Sure makes me curious as hell to see if the advice offered in the book follows the same model.


  23. #23
    aka Sadistic Mistress Mi-chan M.R.J. Le Blanc's Avatar
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    I've yet to see a self-help start a million dollar business/be a guru/make lots of money/whatever books that actually helps people do what it claims to teach. All it does is make the author money.
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  24. #24
    What's up?? sharla's Avatar
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    Talking

    Wow, this just keeps getting better now that JTW himself got involved.

    JT Pressco Website:
    The company hired Drew Easler from Orlando, Florida as its Chief Editor in 2010 to run and expand its operations.
    Drew Easler is who sent the email. I did go to the website today, and found it interesting that they say in bold that they are different from other publishing companies because they don't ask the author for any money!

    Next paragraph explains the free vs. pay program, and I had to laugh at the links under Publish Your Book. Roll your cursor over the ? boxes and you get this:

    Publish for Free: your title must sell 1000 books wihtin 12 months or you will be changed a penalty of $3.00 per book not sold. For example, if you sell 100 books you will be changed $3.00 per book for 900 books.
    Pay $750.00: You do not have minimum quotas, this is the same as being self published with the exception we provide better customer service, plus we are fun to work with.
    I think they should have skipped hiring a Chief Editor if he can't find the typos on their own website.

    Heck that $750 is a deal compared to the $2700 for 900 books not sold! But hey, as long as they're fun to work with...
    Sharla Lovelace
    National Bestselling & Award Winning Author

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  25. #25
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesTWhite View Post
    First, I need to advise you that before you go making remarks that are simply untrue, you conduct your due diligence. I helped develop the company to give authors a chance to publish their work if they don't have the money to do so themselves - trying to help people.
    Dude, first, do your due diligence.

    You're running a vanity press. Full stop. End of sentence. All that anyone needs to know.

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