Question About an Expedition

By the 12th century, the Vikings had already crossed the Atlantic, in what amount to rather large-ish open canoes. With sails. They funded such expeditions by stealing the things they needed. I'm pretty sure they didn't consider themselves criminals, nor really, did anyone else. Without an international currency, that's how it was done. Sorta.

Anyway, some of the Viking ships (if you can call them that) could carry up to 80 men. They were at once soldiers, sailors, and (again, if you can call them that) diplomats.

By the mid 15th century, global exploration was common. Think: Columbus. He used what amounted to three large wooden bathtubs (with sails) to cross the Atlantic. The crew size of each ship was fewer than 30 men. He was given funds by the Queen of Spain. He died a pauper.

If your mission is peacful, you need only a small crew to man the ships that carry the diplomats (in luxury, of course--diplomats will always be diplomats and have ever been so). If your mission is one of conquest, you'll want an armada, because you have no idea of the strength of the other nation.

Don't forget to take plenty of gifts to show that you are friendly, sophisticated and worth knowing

If it's a well funded expedition, it shoudl depend on what they are trying to accomplish.

Since it's not conquest, they won't need an armada of warships. But it could be a flotilla of 3-5 ships. Some for the redundancy of the mission, and giving diplomats a chance to stay while trade goods and reciprocal envoys can return. You'd want a show of security, if not outright force. Something more than a token honor guard if things go south - a personal retinue for the ranking member, plus shipborne defenses (marines or armed sailors). Beyond the practical personnel, you'd want traders, skilled craftsmen, guildmembers, scholars, religious figures, linguist(?) etc. to better approach the new culture, learn from them, and them knowledge and goods in return. That leads into the cargo - what gifts and goods are they interesting in/lacking?

As for the types of ships, consider the maritime history of the originating nation. Are they only known to be fishers of local waters? Are they littoral or river traders? Is there a particular city with shipwrights of note? Look to the historical use of cogs, galleys, galleases, or knaars as your examples for possible seagoing expedition. For post-Roman, pre-Columbian sailing, figure out if you are Genoa, Venice, the Danes, the Normans, the Byzantines, or the Franks.

I would think that any such effort would be accompanied by troops or some form of armament, purely for defensive purposes, if not for conquest.

caw

Don't forget the Portugese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_the_Navigator

dogfacedboy said:

In my current WIP, one nation wants to mount an expedition to make contact with another nation across the sea. The two civilizations are aware of each other but have no relations established. It's a long and difficult journey of several hundred sea miles. The technology level is about 12th-13th century sailing ships

My question is, if you had the resources of an entire nation, what kind of an expedition would you send? How large a force would be needed/suggested? Are we talking one ship with a handful of ambassadors or a dozen ships with a legion of troops? What kind of non-military personnel should be included in the effort? This is not an invasion force. It's simply a diplomatic attempt to make contact and establish relations with another nation.

Any historical references would be helpful. Perhaps links to info on the Portugese sailing to Japan or something similar. My only info right now is Julius Caesar invading Britain, which is not at all the kind of expedition I want to emulate.

Thanks in advance.

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Since your tech level is 12-13th century... why not go to your LOCAL INTERNET/LIBRARY and look it up? It's been done. People were sailing for a long time. There's volumes on this stuff.

I agree that my first thought would be three ships or so, a purposefully SMALL military presence to show you come in peace, etc.

But here's another scenario, of how the Chinese undertook it 600 years ago you might find interesting:

Six centuries ago, a mighty armada of Chinese ships crossed the China Sea, then ventured west to Ceylon, Arabia, and East Africa. The fleet consisted of giant nine-masted junks, escorted by dozens of supply ships, water tankers, transports for cavalry horses, and patrol boats. The armada's crew totaled more than 27,000 sailors and soldiers. The largest of the junks were said to be over 400 feet long and 150 feet wide. (The Santa Maria, Columbus's largest ship, was a mere 90 by 30 feet and his crew numbered only 90.)

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and

Seven times, from 1405 to 1433, the treasure fleets set off for the unknown. These seven great expeditions brought a vast web of trading links—from Taiwan to the Persian Gulf—under Chinese imperial control. This took place half a century before the first Europeans, rounding the tip of Africa in frail Portuguese caravels, 'discovered' the Indian Ocean.

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The whole thing here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers.html

If memory serves me, one fleet that might have discovered the New World otherwise was aborted because the Imperial eunuchs tried to overthrow the Emperor ... so the fleet turned around and went home?

small axe said:

I agree that my first thought would be three ships or so, a purposefully SMALL military presence to show you come in peace, etc.

But here's another scenario, of how the Chinese undertook it 600 years ago you might find interesting:

If memory serves me, one fleet that might have discovered the New World otherwise was aborted because the Imperial eunuchs tried to overthrow the Emperor ... so the fleet turned around and went home?

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It all depends on what they are trying to accomplish.

If they somewhat know the people they are trying to make contact with, they could know how much or little to take with them.

A fleet sent off to explore the unknown might be large if the backers have confidence, like the Chinese, or small, like Columbus, if the voyage is peripheral to the goals of the sponsor, or just the way they do things, like the Vikings.

I'm coming to like the concept of an expedition in contrast to the standard fantasy quest....

There's a pretty good body of evidence showing that the Chinese made early contact with the Americas. The wreckage of a Chinese junk was found in San Frascisco bay containing rice. It was dated to 1410.

And at the Ozette village excavation site on the Makah reservation, they found the remains of a Chinese junk, along with some Chinese coins. The artifacts recovered from the site date back to over 2,000 years ago. I'm not sure exactly how old the junk pieces and coins were, but they are on display in the museum on the res if anybody wants to do some research. There's also a significant linguistic influence from the far east in the Americas.

There's some odd things with pre-columbian livestock too. Like the Chinese crested dog, and the xoloescuintle. One is Chinese (obviously) and the other central/south american. Both belong to only a handful of hairless breeds in the world. It's even more interesting when you consider the Chinese crested was carried on Chinese sailing ships to control rat infestations. Also, China games, silkies, and a handful of other asian poultry breeds were the only group of poultry in the world known to have black skin and 5 toes. In modern times contact was made with a remote Amazonian tribe who had chickens. Their chickens had black skin and 5 toes, rather than white skin and 3 toes like the Mediterranean chickens the Spanish brought with them.

Is your expedition a government operation? Or is it more of a private venture that the king or whoever decided to fund? That makes a difference as far as what they are likely to bring along, and their ultimate purpose.

dogfacedboy said:

Definitely a government operation. I'm looking to make official contact and establish some kind of profitable trading relationship between the two. The problem is, nobody is sure what kind of reception to expect on the other shore.

What would be the difference from a private/subsidized expedition? That is, as far as what to bring along.

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It would depend on how deep the pockets of the investors are, and how much they are willing to risk for unknown reward.

If I was planning such a journey, and I didn't have a clear picture of what to expect, I would definitely err on the side of military strength. For appearances, put a merchant in nominal command (and then you can have conflict internal to the expedition). If it was privately financed, you'd be looking at mercenaries or merchant soldiers - the quality would depend on how they are employed in your world. They may even be limited in numbers such that no merchant can maintain a standing army.

Whatever the case, the military unit would have to be self sufficient to a degree. Mounted troops if they use them (a score or so), regular infantry (50 up to 100), and archers/crossbowmen (a few dozen). They will need horses, farriers, fletchers, armorers, quartermasters, engineers, pioneers, sappers, scouts, grooms, etc. Probably some of those will have to be double duty from the lowest ranks, and other specialties may be from the nobility/officers. A force about that size would not threaten a nation (unless there was drastic tech differences a la gunpowder), but it would still be formidable enough to prevent most attempts at intimidation.

Supplies would be supplies, and only the quantity would differ.

You might read up on how the U.S. opened relations with Japan, sending Commodore Perry and a small group of warships, with a personal letter to the Emperor from our greatest president (Millard Fillmore).

I would expect a small number of people would have already made contact with the other country. (Think Marco Polo). If your country is aware of another country's existence, there will always be people desperate and adventuresome enough to try to establish relations on their own. I would need to have some reason (like magic, say) that there'd been no contact whatsoever.

A lot of early voyages of exploration had dual intentions of making money and opening international relations. A good rule of thumb in history - follow the money! They might send a few (armed against pirates) trading vessels with trade goods (plus some extra goodies as presents for the other government), plus an official envoy or two.

I recall that during this general time period, China sent an enormous trading/diplomatic mission to India and africa, with over a hundred ships, the biggest of which were just about as big as you can make a wood ship, and literally thousands of merchants, diplomats, and sailors.

And once it was done, they more or less decided that this sort of thing was too much trouble, and quit doing it.