Evidence for God
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Clatto Verata Nicto.
Unavoidable,
Goonga, goonga, caloonga,
Ties in with my earlier, got that going for me post.
I hope when I start the present time awareness debate you will join in.
Sure, unless, you've already started it in the past.
I don't really believe in time, so much, though. It's the illusion which prevents us from experiencing the universe properly, leads to all kinds of false starts, you know, like science...
Ruv Draba
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I'm a slaaaaave to logic;
I am Aristotle's bitch.
Cos I don't believe in magic
And I know I'm not a witch.
Yeah, reality's my prison
And I never shall be free
Cos my logic's pokin holes
In narcissistic fantaseeeeeee.
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Sure, unless, you've already started it in the past.
I don't really believe in time, so much, though. It's the illusion which prevents us from experiencing the universe properly, leads to all kinds of false starts, you know, like science...
The time part is for lack of a better term. It's like, brushing your teeth, are you really brushing your teeth, or planning your day.
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Hello bigb
,Thank you for taking the time to respond. I did not think of you as being a Buddha salesman. I agree with you about Abraham. The man was about to do some seriously messed up stuff. While I comprehend your point about today’s standards, I continue to choose to see little difference in degree of seriousness between actions that threaten physical versus psychological well-being.
Two questions:
1. Which of these is greater, the ability to seek forgiveness or the ability to give it?
My opinion is both. It takes a great deal of character to admit to a mistake and attempt to correct it. Provided the mistake was genuine and not premeditation based on knowledge of another's capacity for compassion and forgiveness.
2. Which of these is greater, seeking forgiveness or permission?
My opinion is permission, within reason, that comes from regard for others and considering the potential negative impact of one’s actions on them.
Questions I am currently contemplating:
Did Buddha seek forgiveness? Did he feel he needed to?
The psyche is my favorite forest. Look at all those trees.
Gehanna
Hello bigb
Did Buddha seek forgiveness? Did he feel he needed to?
Gehanna
One of the basic, essential parts of the Buddhas awakening was "seeking" is one of the main causes of suffering.
All the text were written approx 400 years after his death, we have to accept that he was forgiven based on his family becoming loyal followers.
The difference I see between Abraham and Buddha would be;
Voice in the sky, versus, seeing suffering and wanting to find the root cause and solution to that suffering.
Problem is, these are just stories, and Abraham's story doesn't give any lesson that could actually be useful in real life.
At least Buddha, found that the source of suffering is ignorance, brought on by attachment. And tought an eight fold path to help keep that inorance in check.
I can't really speak to your other two questions. i'm cash and carry, believe that every situation is it's own, to be dealt with independently. I fail miseribly all the time, but make an honest effort.
peace
Better way of saying it
Present Moment Awareness
Gotta love rain days, I should be doing my corperate taxes, but fuck it that's what extensions are for
Scratch Moment, Just "Present Awareness"
Present Moment Awareness
Gotta love rain days, I should be doing my corperate taxes, but fuck it that's what extensions are for
Scratch Moment, Just "Present Awareness"
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Where are all the atheists today? Come out, come out, come out to play!
Reality is a contradiction. There is no difference between theism and atheism. Two sides. Same Coin.
Reality is a contradiction. There is no difference between theism and atheism. Two sides. Same Coin.
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Two sides of the same coin? Riiiiiiggghhhhhhtttt . . .
Most. Boring. Thing. Ever. To attempt to dissuade someone who is hooked on mythology and superstition (whether it is religion or numerology or astrology). It's only the ones who use their mythology and superstitions to wage war, justify torture and murder, or to give themselves and their cronies a free pass on child molesting and other forms of cruelty that really need to be confronted. The rest are harmless in their delusions (unless they are enabling the torturers, molestors, etc.).
--Ken
Well hey, I'm open to hard evidence of the existence of The Great Pumpkin, but just thinking about the legend's origin in a comic strip, I'm not going to expend
So technically I'm a Great Pumpkin agnostic, but practically I'm a Great Pumpkin atheist.
At first glance, that sounds insulting, but ...
Below is (some of) the gist of my seven years of going to AA meetings, having an AA sponsor and reading the Big Book and 12&12. I even spent months typing the first 164 pages of the Big Book (the accepted "canon" of AA) into a computer file, and I learned a lot doing that. There's of course a whole lot of lore, ideas and attitudes in AA that aren't written in the literature. The only reason it takes as long as it does to learn is that it's NOT written down, and it's learned and taught only by example, much of it subconsciously.
But yes, five years seems like a lot of training. I recall hearing so much stuff in AA about how long it takes to learn those 164 pages of the big book, such as a claim that "It takes five years to learn the steps, and another five years to take the steps" yet there's good evidence, and old-timers freely admit this, from the literature that in the first years of AA new recruits were taken through all twelve steps in hours if not days. (it's also legend that in the early days if you showed up at a meeting wearing a watch you were sent away, because you "haven't drank enough.")
But what brought this to mind was the "miracles" in AA - there's a lot of talk about miracles in AA, such as in the slogan "if you don't believe in miracles, keep coming back and you'll BE one!" Much of the talk seems to be figurative (similar to how it's used in the phrase "the miracle of modern medicine"), but often it's DEFNINTELY meant literally. I had only been sober and going to AA daily for a few months when I started seeing miracles. So it was a very much experiential process, and it seems one can't explain or discuss it intelligently to another without the other also spending the time going through it. Looking back, it was just my mind being reprogrammed as to what's possible and what's impossible (as in "no human power could have relieved our alcoholism"), and anytime something happened that went against that, it was automatically evidence for a miracle, an instance of Divine Intervention.
Your mention of open-mindedness brings to mind the Big Book's "Appendix II" where the order of words in the last paragraph are rearranged to be [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Honesty, Open mindedness and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Willingness," [/FONT]with the three initial letters capitalized, and the saying is added that "this is HOW it works." (How It Works is the title of Chapter 5 which lists the 12 steps) There's much talk in meetings as well as the literature that one should "keep an open mind" toward "spiritual matters" and the steps and beliefs of AA, but "outside literature" isn't so venerated. "Outside" reading was sometimes actively discouraged, and at other times was approved "for entertainment purposes only," not to be taken seriously.
Have you ever tried to tell the people living in Plato's cave what was going on? That's really a challenge.
Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly, that not only are myths or superstitions never a good justification for any real-life decisions, nothing justifies inhuman behavior toward others. Ever. See, we agree. Same coin.
So, Ben, you would expect to be able to do complex quantum physics experiments with no education and equipment? Could you write without being taught? No insult is intented. Not only are there numerous skills I do not possess, there is also much knowledge I do not possess. I don't know how to build a race car, or a dam, or a space shuttle. Should I be insulted by the areas of my own ignorance? Of course not.
Whatever you think about magick, it involves staggering levels of discipline, mental stamina, curiousity, imagination, love, vast research and grasping of ancient philosophical systems, and will. There is no crash course. Even, if you, and most people, don't believe in it, it doesn't change the fact, that the preparations leave the practioner in far better mental and physical condition, whatever the results. Art for art's sake, perhaps.
It took me years of "training" to become a convincing "friend of Bill W." but I think most of what people need to know about AA and a lot of other groups is in the short, crudely-made video "Mind Control Made Easy."
Which does not necessitate that all mystical/magickal/religious are the same. That's a very broad brush. Sure, I'll even give you a lot of religions fit that mold, but not all. Some are non-evangelizing. It's possible that our very society attempts to do the same thing.
The interesting thing about the AA is that the A.A. was the name (Astrum Argentum) was the name of an occult order founded by Aleister Crowley first.
I used to get in trouble for saying that in meetings, great way to piss off old timers.
I also used to get in trouble for discounting miracles, or time sober celebrations.
Is it a miracle to live in a way to be useful to others and yourself, which is the opposite of addiction. Or celebrate the fact that we, are now doing it. I think amazing, or habilitated are more appropriate.
Miracles can't be explained.
A group of people meeting for the purpose of helping each other fight addiction seems, amazing, but not miraculous.
Oldtimers hated me, but what do I know, I haven't been to meeting in 5 years, but haven't altered my mind in almost 20.
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Ignorance too easily becomes an excuse for manipulators. Seek with diligence not to be ignorant. That is the direct way to keep ignorance in check and decrease suffering.
Hello Diana Hignutt,
To just do and to just be? Sounds like an excuse for people to avoid thinking before they act. It may work in a perfect world, but the concept has no beneficial application in this "real" or "experiential" world. Too much bad shit happens that I ascertain would not happen at all if the world had more critical thinkers than egocentric ones. I base my assumption of the world having less critical thinkers than egocentric ones on growth and development and belief that critical thinking requires ongoing skills development. Show me a critical thinking prodigy and I'll show you a golden ego for idol worship.
Gehanna
What? You have to remember I'm not educated, cause it seems like your saying Buddha was a manipulator, or possibly your speaking of ignorance as lack of education, which would make me ingnorant.
What is this direct way?
Seek with diligence not to be ignorant. Is that a statement or a solution? The Buddha created a 8 fold path that even an ignorant redneck like me could grasp.
Ignorance is not accepting ones own nature. That was the Buddhas point.
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Do you mean not educated as in not having a high school diploma or as in not having a doctoral degree in rocket science? If you mean the latter, then neither am I.
What I meant about ignorance is as follows:
Genuine ignorance as a lack of awareness of the motive(s) for one’s own actions. These individuals may lack cognitive ability to seek with diligence not to be ignorant.
Genuine ignorance as a lack of knowledge of information. These individuals may also lack cognitive ability to seek with diligence not to be ignorant. If not, then seeking with diligence not to be ignorant would be applicable. In other words, study to shew thyself approved... err wait. That is from the Bible. What I mean is to exert effort to gain the missing information. Exercise the capacity for learning.
Manipulative ignorance (feigned ignorance) as denial of known information. In this case, appropriately seeking with diligence not to be ignorant is rejected because it thwarts the manipulator's gain.
Manipulative ignorance (feigned ignorance) as denial of awareness of the motive(s) for one’s own actions. Again, there would be rejection to prevent the thwarting of the manipulator's gain.
Attempting to hide one's nature by feigning ignorance is a choice.
Gehanna
First, the greatest rocket scientist (Jack Parsons, a distant relative of mine) had no formal education either, but he invented solid rocket fuel and founded the Jet Propulsion Lab.
Our motives? Aren't we all just puppets? Puppets of our early developmental problems, puppets of our environment, puppets of our endocrine systems. We have no real motives, do we? Motives are the illusion we apply to ourselves to deny the puppet nature of our existense. Isn't that right, my atheist friends? Help a girl out.
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