All Teachers at a Rhode Island High School Fired

backslashbaby · Feb 24, 2010

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying a thing about most teachers, and certainly not all teachers.

In one school, it's possible that our view on what we have seen doesn't apply. It's possible it does. The school may have a strange and unworkable way of doing things. It might not.

It's small enough that it wouldn't be that hard to find out what's really going on. Would that ever make firing all of the teachers and allowing them to reapply a reasonable thing to do? I've seen it in business. It totally depends on the actual environment.

I have seen teachers that needed to be fired, btw. That says nothing about other teachers. If you could fire the parents, that'd really help

But you can't.

DeleyanLee · Feb 24, 2010

A teacher can only teach. It's the student that must do the work of learning. The best teacher can't teach an unwilling student.

My experience is that most people (kids and adults) don't know how to learn anymore. People expect that ability is as ubitious as common sense.

clintl · Feb 24, 2010

TerzaRima said:
Shadow, I think that's a tad unfair. Many teachers I know (and I was raised by two) work on lesson plans at night and pay for many supplies out of their own pocket, while making meagre salaries. Our culture seems to expect this kind of devotion, because it's for the childrrreeeen.

I will likely be buying supplies this evening for a lab, in fact.

rhymegirl · Feb 24, 2010

I don't think that article mentioned that Central Falls is one of the poorest cities in our state. It's not the teachers. A lot of the kids probably don't go to school every day or simply drop out. There's a high crime rate in CF.

brainstorm77 · Feb 24, 2010

The teachers here have a union behind them, this would not fly.

backslashbaby · Feb 24, 2010

A new federal requirement mandates that states must identify their lowest-performing 5 percent of schools and fix them by using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation; or “turnaround” which requires the entire school staff be fired and not more than half be rehired in the fall.

Gallo and the union initially agreed that they wanted to embrace the transformation model — the only one that does not require that the teaching staff be replaced.

But the two parties could not reach agreement on the details of what transformation would entail.

Gallo wanted the union to sign off on six conditions that required teachers to spend more time helping students and with colleagues in professional training sessions. Gallo said she could only afford to pay teachers $30 per hour for some of the extra responsibilities — $1,800 for two weeks of training in the summer, and potentially $1,620 for weekly 90-minute afterschool sessions, if she could secure grant money. Teachers, Gallo said, would not be compensated for the other changes: lengthening the school day by 25 minutes; formalizing a tutoring schedule; eating lunch with students once a week; and submitting to more rigorous evaluations starting March 1.

Union officials said they wanted to be paid for more of the duties and wanted to receive a higher pay rate –– $90 per hour.

But Thursday, another barrier between the two sides came to light: job security....

Am I crazy, or was the union demanding that not one teacher be fired?

Sessums said she recollected the negotiations differently. “Yes, there was discussion about the 80 percent,” Sessums said. “But she could not guarantee to all our members that they would keep their jobs.”

The Providence paper reports that the average base salary of the teachers is $72,000 to $78,000, not counting benefits. The median income for a household in the town of Central Falls is $22,628.

eta: sorry!
http://www.projo.com/education/content/central_falls_letters_02-19-10_2DHGHET_v36.3a65dd5.html
Hmmmm....

Shadow_Ferret · Feb 24, 2010

TerzaRima said:
Our culture seems to expect this kind of devotion, because it's for the childrrreeeen.

Exactly. Because that's also the reason they give for why they became teachers in the first place.

mscelina said:
People who make more than the paltry 35k a year a lot of teachers receive bitch and whine and moan if their job cuts into their personal time.

I've been unemployed for a year. 35k a year doesn't seem paltry at all. Seems like a fortune at this point. Sorry if I'm less than sympathetic.

DeleyanLee said:
My experience is that most people (kids and adults) don't know how to learn anymore. People expect that ability is as ubitious as common sense.

Maybe they weren't TAUGHT how to learn.

backslashbaby said:
Am I crazy, or was the union demanding that not one teacher be fired?

That's how teachers' unions work. In our school system, I can't ever recall hearing of a teacher being fired. They merely get transfered to another school within the system to continue with their bad teaching.

TerzaRima · Feb 24, 2010

Shadow, the man/woman who fixes your car is probably in his line of work because he enjoys it. The next time you need repairs, please inform him (or her) that he has a duty to work for free and report back. I'll be on tenterhooks to see how that one goes.

backslashbaby · Feb 24, 2010

There's a big difference between free and wanting $90 an hour to tutor your students after class twice a week.

They are getting paid $72,000 to $78,000 base before benefits already. And their kids are failing beyond belief. Something's not adding up, that's for sure.

Why such surprise that in one school the teachers (and/or their union) could be a part of what doesn't add up?

Toothpaste · Feb 24, 2010

You know, I like Shadow's way of thinking. It's like when Lawyers bill for all the hours they've worked for you, well that can really add up. Surely they love their jobs right? Surely they don't mind taking it home with them? Why should I pay them to do something that they signed up to do?

Honestly Shadow, if I go into detail about what a teacher does with all their time, most of which is unpaid, will that make a difference to you? If I told you my father left the house every day at 7am got home at 5pm, and continued to mark all night (and was only paid for school hours), would that help you at all? That he chaperoned school dances, directed plays, etc, all again not being paid for it. That he actually apologised to me in his retirement speech for feeling like he hadn't spent enough time with me (which was so untrue, he managed (and still is) to be the most attentive father). And besides all of that he worked in a profession that no one respects, that everyone thinks they know better how to do than the people who were trained for it, and where people think you are lazy and don't do any work and that, some people, think they should do everything for free. If I told you all that would any of it make a difference? I don't think honestly it would. You seem determined to think ill of teachers.

It's truly fascinating actually. I've been arguing on the side of teachers for forever, and friends who once took the opposing view who now happen to be teachers themselves have totally made a 180. Why? Because no one really understands the amount of work involved in teaching until they do it. No one realises the energy it takes to just stand in front of a class alone, let alone everything else. Teaching is damn hard. And gets no respect. And, in the States at least, pretty crappy pay (ironically the poorest paid teachers are the ones dealing with the most difficult students, vs the highly paid private school teachers).

Yeah, you're right, teachers aren't doing enough. Let's make them do more and just to show them how little we think of them, let's not even consider that what they do is valuable enough to deserve equal compensation.

Toothpaste · Feb 24, 2010

Oh. And btw. If anyone thinks marking papers isn't "work", that filling out report cards don't count, or that really anything a teacher does when she isn't in the classroom is easy, may I remind you how most jobs in the business world are nothing but paperwork, often basic data entry.

Cranky · Feb 24, 2010

backslashbaby said:
There's a big difference between free and wanting $90 an hour to tutor your students after class twice a week.

They are getting paid $72,000 to $78,000 base before benefits already. And their kids are failing beyond belief. Something's not adding up, that's for sure.

Why such surprise that in one school the teachers (and/or their union) could be a part of what doesn't add up?

I'm thinking I should tell my husband we should move there after he graduates. Starting salary around here for teachers is around 35k per year. I think math and science teachers make a bit more (he's going to be a math teacher), but the average teacher's salary is around 45k, I think.

*shakes head*

Also, SF, I've got to agree with Toothpaste. I know my own kids' teachers spend a lot of of their free time and money out of their own pockets on our kids. (Not ours specifically -- all the children) And the good ones, which are most of the teachers I've seen, are worth every penny they get paid and then some.

robeiae · Feb 24, 2010

Toothpaste said:
You know, I like Shadow's way of thinking. It's like when Lawyers bill for all the hours they've worked for you, well that can really add up. Surely they love their jobs right? Surely they don't mind taking it home with them? Why should I pay them to do something that they signed up to do?

Honestly Shadow, if I go into detail about what a teacher does with all their time, most of which is unpaid, will that make a difference to you? If I told you my father left the house every day at 7am got home at 5pm, and continued to mark all night (and was only paid for school hours), would that help you at all? That he chaperoned school dances, directed plays, etc, all again not being paid for it. That he actually apologised to me in his retirement speech for feeling like he hadn't spent enough time with me (which was so untrue, he managed (and still is) to be the most attentive father). And besides all of that he worked in a profession that no one respects, that everyone thinks they know better how to do than the people who were trained for it, and where people think you are lazy and don't do any work and that, some people, think they should do everything for free. If I told you all that would any of it make a difference? I don't think honestly it would. You seem determined to think ill of teachers.

It's truly fascinating actually. I've been arguing on the side of teachers for forever, and friends who once took the opposing view who now happen to be teachers themselves have totally made a 180. Why? Because no one really understands the amount of work involved in teaching until they do it. No one realises the energy it takes to just stand in front of a class alone, let alone everything else. Teaching is damn hard. And gets no respect. And, in the States at least, pretty crappy pay (ironically the poorest paid teachers are the ones dealing with the most difficult students, vs the highly paid private school teachers).

Yeah, you're right, teachers aren't doing enough. Let's make them do more and just to show them how little we think of them, let's not even consider that what they do is valuable enough to deserve equal compensation.

I come from a family of teachers. And principals. And school admins. I would agree that there's very little that's easy about the teaching profession. And I would agree that most teachers are underpaid (some, however, are truly overpaid).

But I'm trying to wrap my head around some of what you've said here and I just can't. Having been friends with many children of teachers and having a teacher for a mother, I have to note that my personal experiences and knowledge don't support this "teachers work WAAAY more than anyone understands." My mom was home way more than my father, way more than the dual-working parents of friends, way more than pretty much all parents that I knew, except for those that were also teachers or that didn't work. Plus, there were the breaks: winter, spring, summer. All and all, I thought--and my mother thought--it was a pretty fair deal, though a little more money would have been better.

As to pay, I would like to note that teachers in New York State do pretty good. I know because my ex-uncle retired early, bought a summer home, and is living great, all from his and his wife's teaching career. That's all they ever did.

Of course, there are plenty of other places where teachers get the shaft. But it's not the all-encompassing shaft that is so often presented.

backslashbaby · Feb 24, 2010

Cranky said:
I'm thinking I should tell my husband we should move there after he graduates. Starting salary around here for teachers is around 35k per year. I think math and science teachers make a bit more (he's going to be a math teacher), but the average teacher's salary is around 45k, I think.

*shakes head*

Also, SF, I've got to agree with Toothpaste. I know my own kids' teachers spend a lot of of their free time and money out of their own pockets on our kids. (Not ours specifically -- all the children) And the good ones, which are most of the teachers I've seen, are worth every penny they get paid and then some.

I'm betting they are looking for people like your husband! Ours don't get paid like that, here, either. And they should get paid more!

It sounds as if many of them work for nearly half as much as these teachers and welcome students after class. Really, they are awesome.

Well, not my freshman math teacher. She didn't even teach; she sat down and we were on our own to do whatever we wanted as long as we were quiet. That one, I'd fire. Sorry, I just would.

SPMiller · Feb 24, 2010

Teaching is already far more than a 40 hr/wk job, and they get paid shit for it. You hear me? Shit. To ask them to add even more hours on top of their ridiculous workload is outrageous, and I'm not surprised they'd refuse.

kikazaru · Feb 24, 2010

What I find astounding is not that the teachers are paid over 70,000 but that the average salary for the general populace is 22,000 - that is poverty level and seems to me to be a big part of the problem right there. To speak in generalities, the lower the salary, the less education people have, the less education they have, the more hours they have to work to make ends meet, and the less time they have to spend with their kids. If they aren't spending time with their kids, how can they help them with school work and how can they guide them especially if they don't have the education themselves.

Also, it seems to me that there will always be a segment of the population, who will just not do well academically. At one time not too long ago, if you couldn't handle school work, you dropped out and learned a trade or got a job that would still allow you to earn a good living and support a family. Now to get a good job, you need a high school diploma plus further education at a college or university - which may be beyond the reach of a lot of students - not because they don't try (although that could be for some) but simply because they are not academically inclined.

And as one who works in the school system, I can attest that almost every teacher I know earns their salary. Dealing with kids who don't want to be there, who have learning difficulties, who are neglected, who don't get enough to eat is difficult enough, you couldn't pay me enough to deal with the nutty parents and the administration.

Haggis · Feb 24, 2010

SPMiller said:
Teaching is already far more than a 40 hr/wk job, and they get paid shit for it. You hear me? Shit. To ask them to add even more hours on top of their ridiculous workload is outrageous, and I'm not surprised they'd refuse.

In my town, a teacher with 15 or so years experience and a Masters (paid for by taxpayers) can earn about $65K to $70K plus outstanding health care and retirement benefits. Lots of folks I know would love that shit, and many of them are salaried, already working more than 40 hours per week.

I have a great deal of respect for good teachers. It's a job I would never want, and I don't begrudge them their pay, benefits or summers off. But the poor mouthing does get old.

benbradley · Feb 24, 2010

Firing everyone at a school is not the worst thing that could happen.

veinglory · Feb 24, 2010

Haggis said:
Yet that's very common in business. In fact, if one refuses to put in more than the required 40 hours, he or she can be considered someone who is not a team member. And, yes, it can lead to firings.

It still sucks. I doubt all 80 teachers were useless.

backslashbaby · Feb 24, 2010

benbradley said:
Firing everyone at a school is not the worst thing that could happen.

No kidding!

This school is the bottom 5%.

From my earlier post:

A new federal requirement mandates that states must identify their lowest-performing 5 percent of schools and fix them by using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation; or “turnaround” which requires the entire school staff be fired and not more than half be rehired in the fall.

Gallo and the union initially agreed that they wanted to embrace the transformation model — the only one that does not require that the teaching staff be replaced.

That's what the teachers' union turned down. And it could be a lot worse than what they declined, for sure.

veinglory · Feb 24, 2010

Cranky said:
I'm thinking I should tell my husband we should move there after he graduates. Starting salary around here for teachers is around 35k per year.

I gather this is a less than desirable area. Maybe they have to pay more to fill the jobs. In whoch case I wonder how easy it will be to fill those position and how well a line-up of all newbie teachers will do. If they hore a lot of eager new grad there may well be a disaster.

Teachers are not perfect en masse, but in my experience school boards aren't either--and they are not trained education professionals. They are often pretty much the types you find in any kind of local government.

Haggis · Feb 24, 2010

veinglory said:
It still sucks. I doubt all 80 teachers were useless.

Agreed. Absolutely. It's a BS response to the problem--the problem being low graduation rates and test scores, not teacher unwillingness to stay past their allotted hours.

Cranky · Feb 24, 2010

ETA: Forgot to quote again, drat it. Anyway, this is in response to veinglory's post.

Sorry. I was being a little facetious.

Hubby is planning to stay here to teach, and it's a good school system.

backslashbaby · Feb 24, 2010

Haggis said:
Agreed. Absolutely. It's a BS response to the problem--the problem being low graduation rates and test scores, not teacher unwillingness to stay past their allotted hours.

I agree. Yet to fix it, I think you'll need the kinds of teachers who will tutor twice a week for $30 an hour (instead of $90) if the kids need it, you know? It's a chicken and egg thing, probably (again, I'd have to see a lot more to know).

rhymegirl · Feb 24, 2010

kikazaru said:
What I find astounding is not that the teachers are paid over 70,000 but that the average salary for the general populace is 22,000 - that is poverty level and seems to me to be a big part of the problem right there. To speak in generalities, the lower the salary, the less education people have, the less education they have, the more hours they have to work to make ends meet, and the less time they have to spend with their kids. If they aren't spending time with their kids, how can they help them with school work and how can they guide them especially if they don't have the education themselves.

You have said it all here.

As I mentioned in my post, Central Falls has many low-income families. There are also many English as a second language families. I'm sure this is a big factor in the school. The parents might not speak English at all or if so, not very well. How can you help with homework if you can't speak English?

All Teachers at a Rhode Island High School Fired

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