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djf881

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dj, we know it doesn't work because it DOES get rejected in court. Every time. I've read about cases (I can't recall the particulars) of writers who tried to use poor man's copyright in court and they lost. It simply doesn't hold up as evidence. THAT is why industry pros tell writers it's useless. Because it WILL get rejected as evidence. Your suggestion of beta readers, that's probably better. Notes and drafts that can be ink-dated might be able to work too (I'm not a lawyer, btw!). But if writers think they can just mail or email copies to themselves and think that alone will hold up in court in the unlikely event that there's a copyright dispute, they're kidding themselves. It won't hold up.

The very best way to avoid the problem in the first place is prevention. Don't post any of your work online. Don't use display sites. Don't give it to someone you don't know or have reservations about. By that alone, you've reduced the odds of someone stealing your work to virtually zero. And kept your first publishing rights out of dodgy territory.

I'm not sure what you mean by rejected. I see no reason why this would be inadmissible as evidence of authorship. There is nothing inherently wrong with it from a legal standpoint. Whether it would be factually persuasive is an entirely different question, that's really up to a jury.

The myth behind the Poor Man's Copyright seems to be that mailing yourself a copy of the work confers some right upon the author that did not exist before the mailing, or that mailing oneself a copy is functionally the same as registering the copyright. This is not true. The copyright vests at the creation of the work. You don't have to register it to be protected. You don't have to put a copyright symbol on it. You just have to create it and the right is automatic. Mailing the thing to yourself has no legal significance.

Maybe that's what I'm failing to communicate. I'm looking at it as an intellectual exercise, like a law school exam, rather than as a practical matter. I think the myth is that the mailing is a legally significant gesture. It is not, but it does provide (potentially impeachable) evidence of a particular fact.

In a situation where a party had mailed himself a copy of his work, and his possession of the manuscript on the date of the postmark was at issue, I don't see any reason why he couldn't introduce the sealed envelope as evidence of his possession of the manuscript on the date of the postmark. Since the registered envelope is subject to tampering, it could certainly be faked. The opposing party would bring this up on cross examination, and possibly call some kind of witness to testify about how easy it would be to create a fake registered letter. But the mailing would probably be admissible, legally, even if it isn't compelling evidence.

As to the question of whether mailing yourself a copy of your work protects you, obviously the answer is that it doesn't do much. To the extent the fact-finder trusts the envelope, it establishes the party's possession of the work on the date of the postmark. The e-mail through Google establishes the same fact: possession of the manuscript on a particular date. The e-mail is much more tamperproof than the envelope, is better evidence because it's harder or impossible to fake.

The service provided by this website is no different than the e-mail, and no different in what it ostensibly proves than the poor man's copyright through registered mail. This website may be relatively more trustworthy than the easily-falsified envelope, but I don't see any factual reason to trust these people more than Google. As I and others have pointed out, if the issue of authorship is in dispute, most authors will have plenty of evidence of authorship created in the regular writing process (drafts, submission records, testimony of people who read the author's work).

None of these methods are a substitute for registering the copyright. But even if you register the copyright, that isn't likely to answer most common factual scenario in a plagiarism/manuscript theft case, because the stolen version will likely be changed enough to make the issue a question of whether the disputed work is actually infringing, rather than a dispute over authorship.
 
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I am familiar with the copyright area because, in law school, I had an academic interest in public choice theory and, and copyright legislation is an area where legislative capture by narrow interests is easily observed, and the effect of interest pressure in this area is easier to understand than something like defense contracts or farm subsidies.

I am talking about a legal issue in a very general sense. Nobody has requested advice, and I haven't offered advice. I am sharing what I know in general terms, which is not legal advice. I don't have to attach any disclaimers to a general discussion of a hypothetical issue.

You need to go back to school. Seriously, you are making statements that are less than appropriate or informed.

There are entire firms of attorneys who specialize in IP cases who are not working for the RIAA; they're working for content creating artists, musicians, writers, and, dog help us, film and tv studios and universities.

You are making statements that are contradicted by basic case law and basic sources like Nimmer, not to mention informed practicing IP and copyright attorneys.

IP and copyright law is a specialty because it's complicated.

Ethically, you're on shaky ground because you do identify yourself as an attorney and are participating in a thread that is explicitly about copyright that began with a question, on a sub-forum titled "Bewares."

What are you thinking, dude?
 

djf881

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Let me try this again, because I may be speaking in terms that are technical and confusing people inadvertently:


1.) In the United States, when you create a work, you own the copyright automatically.

2) Registering the copyright with the Copyright Office establishes the copyright formally, as of a particular date.

3) There is a myth that sending a registered letter to yourself containing the manuscript is either necessary to establish the copyright or that doing this is the same as registering with the Copyright Office.

4) Mailing yourself the manuscript is not a legally significant act. When you create the work, you get rights. When you register the work, you get some other rights. Mailing yourself the manuscript does not give you any rights.

5) In a dispute over authorship of the work, evidence proving that you are the author may be probative. Depending on whether proving your possession of the manuscript on the date of the postmark is an important fact, the sealed letter may establish that fact. However, since registered letters can be tampered with, this evidence is easily impeached.

6) Remember that creating the work is legally significant, and registering the work is legally significant, but mailing the work is not. The service provided by CopyrightDeposit.com is the same as mailing the letter. E-mailing yourself the manuscript is the same as mailing the letter. Storing the letter on a date-stamped CD is the same as mailing the letter.

There is no legal significance to any of these acts, in the sense of creating rights. Each of these acts might be evidence establishing the fact possession of the manuscript on a particular date. Depending on the facts of the case, that may be relevant, or it may establish nothing.

This is not an exclusive list of things that can be evidence of authorship, but these things could be evidence of authorship.

7) Authorship disputes are unusual, and authors probably shouldn't be overly concerned about them. Establishing authorship should not be difficult, even without registering the copyright. There may be publishing industry business reasons not to register an unpublished manuscript.
 

djf881

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You need to go back to school. Seriously, you are making statements that are less than appropriate or informed.

There are entire firms of attorneys who specialize in IP cases who are not working for the RIAA; they're working for content creating artists, musicians, writers, and, dog help us, film and tv studios and universities.

You are making statements that are contradicted by basic case law and basic sources like Nimmer, not to mention informed practicing IP and copyright attorneys.

IP and copyright law is a specialty because it's complicated.

Ethically, you're on shaky ground because you do identify yourself as an attorney and are participating in a thread that is explicitly about copyright that began with a question, on a sub-forum titled "Bewares."

What are you thinking, dude?

There are plenty of places where lawyers draw on their professional knowledge for purposes other than giving advice. Lawyers write letters to the editor. Lawyers write op-eds. Lawyers appear on television to comment about things. Lawyers write books. And lawyers write forum posts.

None of these kinds of communications create client relationships with readers.

I am well aware of my ethical obligations.

Incidentally, copyright isn't very complicated at all. Patent law is very complicated and comprises the bulk of IP work. There are several federal courts who most of the significant patent cases are funneled into; these courts have a lot of patent expertise, and they've developed a complex body of law that deals with facts that are often very complex. Copyright law is pretty much just about the entertainment industry. There is much less significant case law and a lot of major, fairly recent legislation that was drafted by lobbyists on behalf of Hollywood and the RIAA. It's primarily interesting to me as a public choice issue because it's simple and it's rotten to the core. Statutory damages for copyright infringement is disgusting and immoral, and, I think, unconstitutional. But that's off-topic.
 
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MartyKay

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Ah... this is one of those arguments where it goes:
"I think that is a load of baloney"
"No, I think that is a load of baloney"
"What are you talking about, that is a load of baloney"
"You can't say that! It is a big steaming load of baloney"...
etc

In other words:
There is nothing this site offers that you couldn't achieve by e-mailing the document to yourself through Gmail and creating a date-stamped record of the manuscript.
wasn't a suggestion that doing so was worthwhile, useful or a substitute for registration, but that the site concerned was like emailing the document to yourself ie not worthwhile, useful or a substitute for registration.

Have I got that right?
 

MacAllister

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I'm closing this thread, since it's going around in circles, and I probably need to contact my OWN attorney at this point since I've got some guy claiming to be a lawyer and giving what might quite reasonably be construed to be copyright and IP law advice without any disclaimers, on my message board.
 
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