Questions on using lyrics or a song in Novel

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

Spectral Aggressor said:

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

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Bear in mind that it might really date your work or could give the wrong impression- for example, if your character was meant to be a music connoisseur and then cited a band that you think is cool but other people think is really cheesy.

Unless you're using it to date a novel (for example, someone in the sixties listening to the Beatles), I'd be cautious.

Spectral Aggressor said:

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

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If you mean "story of your own" as in a private and unpublished story, then yes.

What Lady Ice just said, reiterated. The very first questions you, as author, should ask yourself are: What does mention of such a thing actually do for my story? How specific do I need to be (e.g., does it make a difference if your character is listening to "Styx" or just to "cheesy overblown pompous seventies rock")?

And, above all, don't assume readers are going to know about the band or song you decide to name, unless it's a really well-known thing. The last thing you want a reader to be doing is scratching his head, wondering WTF that reference meant?

Similar cautions can be issued for the use of other kinds of pop culture references, such as to fashion, or movies, etc.

caw

Sad to say but this thread is going to make me revise chapter four of my science fiction comedy. To set the scene, a violent war-mongering race are about to enter Earth's orbit and generally frighten everyone.

The current draft (a little rough around the edges) starts like this:







“Absolutely nothing.”

“Say it again?”

It was the late shift at the radio telescope array. Bill and Pete were eating pizza and idly checking their screens for a sign – any sign – of another alien visitor.

“I mean, the area of space I am looking at has absolutely nothing in it. Zero. Nada. Nothing,” said Pete, chewing absent-mindedly on a double meat feast deluxe with extra pepperoni.

Once! said:

Chapter Four



WAR! HUH! WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?​

“Absolutely nothing.”

“Say it again?”

It was the late shift at the radio telescope array. Bill and Pete were eating pizza and idly checking their screens for a sign – any sign – of another alien visitor.

“I mean, the area of space I am looking at has absolutely nothing in it. Zero. Nada. Nothing,” said Pete, chewing absent-mindedly on a double meat feast deluxe with extra pepperoni.

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This is a great example, and glad you posted it. I just cut the offending material (above), and seems to me that loses nothing. And, yes, I'm very familiar with Edwin Starr's classic soul anthem.

You could undoubtedly find another chapter title, or just leave it out. Some people hate chapter titles, but I'm not among them, and often use them myself.

In any case, I don't think the song reference added anything, and it's painless to remove.

caw

I know, but I liked the joke. It seemed fun to have a song lyric bounce from a chapter title to one character's speech and then another.

Ho hum. Murdering our darlings and all that. It's got to go...

This topic has been discussed a couple of gazillion times, but I guess it's still worth talking about if people are uncertain about copyright.

This is gonna get me in trouble, but why is it so important to quote song lyrics in your fiction? Is it to extract some meaning from the lyrics (in which case it is the songwriter's meaning, not yours), or is it merely to show that your characters like a certain song or a certain singer or band? If you want to give a particular flavor to a story or to a scene, there are many other ways to do it. If you feel it's important to show that your characters are into heavy metal or grunge or goth or bubble-gum, then say so. You can name song titles and bands if you want, but what's the need for lyrics?

As others have said, putting music in a story can date your writing. "Driving home from the game, I listened to '99 Luftballonen.'" Hmm.

However, I should add that when I'm reading fiction from decades ago, the mention of music can enrich the story. If characters are dancing to Glenn Miller's "String of Pearls," that certainly establishes an era, if it hasn't been established before.

Spectral Aggressor said:

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

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Sure, and I wouldn;t worry about dating your novel. Every novel is dated, and if it matter, no one would read any novel written more than ten years ago. Dating is unavoidable. And what some call "dated", others call setting in a real time and place. This is a good thing.

It is astounding how many conflicting opinions there are here. Fair use does not apply to commercial work, yet others say it does.

One person has said that to get around this, quote only the title, OR one may mention, for instance, that the character is listening to a song on the radio, and then himself sings along.... Does anyone know emphatically that this might be okay without paying for the lyrics themselves? And if so, does one use quotation marks or not, such as ... Mark lay on his back, his headphones firmly in his ears and when he heard the song announced as number one, he sang along, 'Wild thing....you make my heart sing...'

Surely, without paying hundred of dollars for a lawyer to give one advice, there must be someone out there that knows for sure?

I recently used a song from the movie "The Jerk" in mine... hmm... I probably should check and make sure that's ok, lol

The book I'm reading now (Saints on the River by Ron Rash) makes reference to songs without naming them explicitly or using the lyrics directly. The narrator says "Lucinda Williams was singing about car wheels on a gravel road..." and I knew exactly which song it was. So if you only use a few words to reference a specific song, is that all right? In this case, referencing the song sort of sets the mood of the scene.

Browland86 said:

The book I'm reading now (Saints on the River by Ron Rash) makes reference to songs without naming them explicitly or using the lyrics directly. The narrator says "Lucinda Williams was singing about car wheels on a gravel road..." and I knew exactly which song it was. So if you only use a few words to reference a specific song, is that all right? In this case, referencing the song sort of sets the mood of the scene.

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Thank you! Excellent solution. Thanks to all for the relevant information.

Megg33k said:

The song itself wasn't meant to have any effect. I just liked the cadence of the words, but I couldn't get far enough away from the actual song to stop reminding people of it (if that makes sense). I didn't really want it to be THAT song... I don't really care about that particular song at all. Regardless, it's been re-written, and I love the new version (which won't get me sued).

RE: Writers' Market... No, it's never been rejected by anyone. I've never submitted it to anyone. I'm simply making a personal choice on how I go about getting my feet wet. I do have a novel I intend to submit for traditional publishing once this is done, though. I'm curious to be able to investigate both options, and I've just chosen to start with self-publishing.

Anyway... Thank you for the input. I sort of knew the answer already, but I had to hear... er... read it for myself. I appreciate it!

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side note: You may want to re-think this. I'm hearing from a lot of agents that your record as a self-published author (provided it's normal and not fifty shades of the rainbow) will be a detriment to your attempts at selling a second novel via traditional publishing. Publishers seem to like their debut authors to be just that---debut. Fresh and clean. Virginal. Whatever. If you have a previously published book, they are going to look at the x-number of copies sold and it will beg the question of "what if this happens with us?". Same with agents.

WHat do you have to gain by self-publishing. What do you have to lose? Which one is worth more?

Fair use is not in place so a writer can use someone else's copyrighted material in his own fiction. It's pure and simple. Do not use song lyrics, period.

What is or isn't fair use does get decided in court, but many cases are open and shut. Fair use spells out the whys and, whens, and hows. About the only murky area is satire.

Opinions may be conflicting, but the law pretty much never is, and chances are you will get sued, you won't win, and even if you do win, you'll still be out an unGodly amount of money.