The "T" Party.

Raventongue

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*hides from the surgery talk because having to wait ~3 years for top surgery is awful*

:hi:, peeps. I hope everyone is well.

Lately I've been wanting to join something like Tindr/Grindr/etc but have been putting it off because, in the closed facebook groups I belong to, I keep seeing other trans men and transmasc peeps showing us screenshots of the awful hate mail they've received on such sites. Or I'm worried people would message me thinking/saying I'm an attractive woman which, depending on context, can almost be worse sometimes. I know the crap other peeps post about getting is only a tiny snippet of what they've likely recieved, and so I'm mega unsure with having no way of even guessing how frequent it would be or how prepared I am to deal with it.

I'm not even sure anymore whether I sincerely want to get laid, think it's worth the effort for its own sake, etc, or whether I just unhealthily think it will fix the fact that I feel deformed and undesirable.

I often felt unsightly and unwanted even before transphobia became part of my experience. Dysphoria was part of it: I used to look down at my body and think it was so gorgeous but so utterly not-mine. Where were my shoulders and hands, where was my face, my legs- where was I? But independently of that, I always sort of felt like, even if my body seemed well-formed and attractive to me, other people seemed to treat me as if I were actively unpleasant to look at. My face, my figure, my clothes- people took just those things on their own as some sort of implicit insult to their eyes. I catch myself wondering if the people who HAVE had sex with me were stifling barf the whole time, or if people who indicated they wanted to all just had some kind of ugliness fetish.

I wonder sometimes whether that's also twisted what I visually see. When I look in the mirror, quite often my face seems subtly asymmetrical and cracked, as of someone who's been in too many fistfights, or I seem to have these weird boney gawky joints or it looks like I move in unnatural and uncanny-valley-ish ways. I can't even tell if that's how I actually look or just how I THINK I look. Nor can I tell whether I've always looked that way to myself or whether it's something that came in after I started feeling ugly.
 

kuwisdelu

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Hi Raventogue!!

Lately I've been wanting to join something like Tindr/Grindr/etc but have been putting it off because, in the closed facebook groups I belong to, I keep seeing other trans men and transmasc peeps showing us screenshots of the awful hate mail they've received on such sites. Or I'm worried people would message me thinking/saying I'm an attractive woman which, depending on context, can almost be worse sometimes. I know the crap other peeps post about getting is only a tiny snippet of what they've likely recieved, and so I'm mega unsure with having no way of even guessing how frequent it would be or how prepared I am to deal with it.

What's your sexual orientation? I like that OKCupid has a setting that prevents straight people from seeing me. Haven't gotten any negative messages so far. Granted, my profile only stays I'm trans in a very roundabout way that requires a quick Google search to figure out what it means, but I figure it should be obvious from my pictures, which are all pre-HRT...

I should really get around to updating those photos, but I'm not too keen on dating right now anyway. If nothing else, I'm moving in a few months, so there's not much point trying to get involved with anyone local anyway.

I wonder sometimes whether that's also twisted what I visually see. When I look in the mirror, quite often my face seems subtly asymmetrical and cracked, as of someone who's been in too many fistfights, or I seem to have these weird boney gawky joints or it looks like I move in unnatural and uncanny-valley-ish ways. I can't even tell if that's how I actually look or just how I THINK I look. Nor can I tell whether I've always looked that way to myself or whether it's something that came in after I started feeling ugly.

I'm just a horrible judge of my own appearance and voice these days. I'm beginning to really like who I see in the mirror at home finally, but once I leave the house and think of other people seeing me, my thoughts all go negative again and I begin worrying.
 

Raventongue

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What's your sexual orientation? I like that OKCupid has a setting that prevents straight people from seeing me. Haven't gotten any negative messages so far.

I'm open to all genders/lack thereof and have the potential to be attracted to most or all bodies within reasonable age range. I'm not sure whether that means I'd want to be visible to everyone or would rather limit it. Certainly I don't want to be dating exclusively straight men or exclusively lesbian women, but I've yet to hear of a dating site complex enough to filter people out only by a combo of listed orientation AND listed gender.

Granted, my profile only stays I'm trans in a very roundabout way that requires a quick Google search to figure out what it means, but I figure it should be obvious from my pictures, which are all pre-HRT...

If I may ask, how do you say it in your profile? I might just outright say it but I'm undecided and want to look at other possible ways.

I'm just a horrible judge of my own appearance and voice these days. I'm beginning to really like who I see in the mirror at home finally, but once I leave the house and think of other people seeing me, my thoughts all go negative again and I begin worrying.

Yeah, being seen always adds a whole new layer of crap to it. Sorry to hear it, that sucks.

I do wish I could say the same before leaving the house. I've always felt like binding, at best, takes me down from a D to a B in the mirror, so for the foreseeable future the dream of seeing someone who looks a bit like me is actually impossible from front-on. I've tried every binder and they're all very limited in what they can achieve. Half the time I don't even bother with it anymore because it changes my appearance so little. I feel like garbage when my shirts don't fit and I just go buy groceries or attend parties etc with my boobs just flopping around, but I feel the exact same way with binder on.
 
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maxmordon

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I dated a trans guy I met on OKCupid while I was staying in NYC. The very first line of his profile asked people to see his stats throughly, where he mentioned he was trasgender, before further reading. I mentioned that a friend of mine, who is a trans woman, got lots of insulting messages on OKCupid but he told me it was very different for trans guys. Still, he had some ground rules on do's and dont's about online dating, but I don't remember them at the moment.
 

DancingMaenid

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I'm open to all genders/lack thereof and have the potential to be attracted to most or all bodies within reasonable age range. I'm not sure whether that means I'd want to be visible to everyone or would rather limit it. Certainly I don't want to be dating exclusively straight men or exclusively lesbian women, but I've yet to hear of a dating site complex enough to filter people out only by a combo of listed orientation AND listed gender.

OKCupid is better for this than most, since they let you list your gender as something other than male or female and can opt to see (and be seen by) only by non-straight people (which isn't the same as being able to search by sexual orientation, but it does help).

It is tricky, though. I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling with feeling like you can't find a partner. I have similar fears and frustrations.

I say in my profiles that I'm non-binary. It is tricky, though, because sometimes I can't get around choosing a binary gender, and while "female" feels a bit more accurate than "male" right now, it's still not accurate. And sometimes it can be challenging to interpret whether someone might be interested or not. I tend to avoid women who describe themselves as lesbians because I don't want to take for granted that they'll be interested in me just because I'm AFAB and have kept my original parts thus far. I don't want to seem like I'm disrespecting their stated preferences. So I mainly contact people who describe themselves as bisexual or pansexual, though if someone who describes themselves as straight or gay contacts me and seems to be cool with the non-binary thing, I'll cautiously give them a chance.

I've tried every binder and they're all very limited in what they can achieve. Half the time I don't even bother with it anymore because it changes my appearance so little. I feel like garbage when my shirts don't fit and I just go buy groceries or attend parties etc with my boobs just flopping around, but I feel the exact same way with binder on.

I feel similarly. Binding just doesn't quite give me what I'm looking for, and it doesn't help me pass as male (though I think it's more because of how curvy and feminine I look than just the slight appearance of breasts. Unless I take T, I'm just not going to have much hope of passing, I don't think). If anything, sometimes binding makes my dysphoria worse because it makes me so hyper-aware of my chest area, and there's the disappointment of not passing. And I'm so sensitive to heat and tight clothing that wearing a binder isn't really worth it, to be honest. And I've been having trouble with my ribs getting sore easily lately, and wearing something tight around them just seems like a bad idea.
 

DancingMaenid

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This is kind of a non-issue at the moment since I don't have any real plans to legally change my name, but I've been thinking a lot lately about what I would want to change my name to.

I go by my middle name, which I'm pretty happy with since I like it and it's a little on the androgynous side. But if I did transition, I'd probably want to change my name.

But here's the thing: when I was 13 and my dad was dying, he told me this story about how my first and middle names had special significance for him. Because of that, I'm hesitant to get rid of either of them. I don't know how serious he really was about that, but I guess I see keeping my name as a tribute to him.

I've also had a really hard time coming up with a name that I like that would go well with my last name. I like Alton and Allen, but my last name is also two syllables long, and I've read that it's better if your first name has a different number of syllables than your last name.
 

DancingMaenid

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So, I'm starting to think about top surgery more, because I'm finally getting closer to a place where I may be able to afford it. It's an idea that I put on the back burner for a bit, but when it comes down to it, I think it may be the best move for me. I know I'd feel more comfortable with a flat chest.

There are a number of considerations, though:

1. There's a doctor in my area who does top surgery, but I haven't seen anything about him online. I'd really like to go with someone local so that I don't have to deal with the cost of travel (and flying home post-op), but I don't want to half-ass a permanent procedure. So research is needed. Plus, I need to think about the logistics of whether I'll need a therapist's note, and the potential struggles of doing this as a non-binary person who isn't on hormones.

2. I want to lose weight. I think it would be best if I were closer to a healthier weight when I have the surgery. Plus, this may help me find clothes that fit well afterward.

3. I want to do it but...the idea of being under anesthesia really bothers me. People have told me it's no big deal, but sometimes you hear about people having bad reactions and never waking up. Also, I want to be prepared for the potential discomforts and complications surrounding the surgery. I don't really care about loss of sensation (I hate having my breasts touched and don't have much sensation in them to begin with, so I'm sure I could live without nipple sensation), but I want to make sure I'm ready for potential issues like crookedness or weird healing.

4. I'd have to think seriously about how much to come out at work beforehand. I don't plan to start living as male, but people will notice if I go from being a 38 DDD to having a flat chest. And I wouldn't want them to worry that I had breast cancer or something. Also, recovery would probably be gradual, and I'd have to make some mild adjustments at work (like maybe not living heavy stuff for a bit).

It's a big step, but it's something that I really want to think about. It's always been a "someday" thing, but now I'm nearing 30 and, knock on wood, have a full-time job and the ability to build up my savings. I'd been thinking about pursuing a breast reduction instead but deep down, I know that's not going to give me what I want.
 

kuwisdelu

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I say in my profiles that I'm non-binary. It is tricky, though, because sometimes I can't get around choosing a binary gender, and while "female" feels a bit more accurate than "male" right now, it's still not accurate. And sometimes it can be challenging to interpret whether someone might be interested or not. I tend to avoid women who describe themselves as lesbians because I don't want to take for granted that they'll be interested in me just because I'm AFAB and have kept my original parts thus far. I don't want to seem like I'm disrespecting their stated preferences. So I mainly contact people who describe themselves as bisexual or pansexual, though if someone who describes themselves as straight or gay contacts me and seems to be cool with the non-binary thing, I'll cautiously give them a chance.

Yeah. It's frustrating that while you have so many options for displayed gender, at some point you have to decide whether you want to appear in searches for "men" or "women", and you can't choose both. At this point, I no longer have issues about checking "woman", but before I started HRT and was still mostly closeted, it was a pretty huge psychological barrier, because both felt like lies at the time. I do need to update my pictures sometime. They're all pre-HRT.

I just need more current pictures of me in general. I have lots of internet things begging to be updated with better photos.

Speaking of which, my ID finally got doubted enough that I got asked for a second form today! This is officially only the second time my ID has been questioned.

This is kind of a non-issue at the moment since I don't have any real plans to legally change my name, but I've been thinking a lot lately about what I would want to change my name to.

I go by my middle name, which I'm pretty happy with since I like it and it's a little on the androgynous side. But if I did transition, I'd probably want to change my name.

But here's the thing: when I was 13 and my dad was dying, he told me this story about how my first and middle names had special significance for him. Because of that, I'm hesitant to get rid of either of them. I don't know how serious he really was about that, but I guess I see keeping my name as a tribute to him.

That's a tough one. Are there any more masculine-ish forms of your names that you like?

But at the end of the day, your names are yours, not his, and if you want to make a tribute to what he chose for you, you can give your old name to an awesome character in a book someday. ;)

I've also had a really hard time coming up with a name that I like that would go well with my last name. I like Alton and Allen, but my last name is also two syllables long, and I've read that it's better if your first name has a different number of syllables than your last name.

My last name is two syllables, and my chosen first name is two syllables. Sounds decent enough to me. Though it does flow a lot better (beautifully, really, I think :)) when you add my chosen middle in between them.

So, I'm starting to think about top surgery more, because I'm finally getting closer to a place where I may be able to afford it. It's an idea that I put on the back burner for a bit, but when it comes down to it, I think it may be the best move for me. I know I'd feel more comfortable with a flat chest.

Surgery is always a big deal and it's pretty scary. I know it's pretty early for me still, but I'm kind of in the same place but with bottom surgery, the recovery for which sounds fairly brutal and terrifying to me.

I don't really have horrible genital dysphoria, and I actually kind of even like the idea of having gender-nonconforming bits, but I can't help but feel like it's holding me back and they're just in the way and I'll feel a lot better when I'm not reminded of what's in my pants all the time. But yeah, it's scary.

There's no way I can afford it yet, but I'm turning 27 this October, and if I play my cards right, I may have a good job with good insurance in Boston, MA within the next few years. Academia isn't exactly what my creative side craves, but it's quickly becoming a more attractive option to me, especially with insurance becoming increasingly important to me.

Similarly, I've been thinking about getting an orchi in the meantime instead, but that's probably not going to give me what I want either.
 

kuwisdelu

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I've developed a horrible habit of trying to figure out whether everyone around me is cis or trans.

Today's the first time I did it with a guy I thought might be a trans dude.

I'm a horrible person. >_< :tongue

Edit: I'd never bring it up. But sometimes I do wish we had a secret handshake.

Edit 2: Or is it just that no one taught it to me? Is that what all those support group meetings are for?
 
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Raventongue

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I actually have a similar problem. I think for me it's my way of trying to remind myself that there's really no such thing as "looking" trans and that theoretically I can be just as socially accepted and considered attractive as any other person. Or maybe I'm just looking for more trans friends to complain about the cis world with.

A secret handshake sure would be helpful.
 

DancingMaenid

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Yeah. It's frustrating that while you have so many options for displayed gender, at some point you have to decide whether you want to appear in searches for "men" or "women", and you can't choose both.

Yeah, it's hard. In my case, I feel like sorting myself with the men doesn't make sense. I don't identify as male and I don't present as male. But I have some insecurity about labeling myself as female because I don't want to give the impression that I identify as a gender-nonconforming woman when I don't.

That's a tough one. Are there any more masculine-ish forms of your names that you like?

Well, the thing is that apparently my dad liked my first name because it's a subtle pun. If I changed it, the pun would be lost. :p

Yeah, it is ultimately my choice. My first name makes me a bit dysphoric because of how feminine it is, but right now I'm okay with going by my middle name and sucking it up when I have to use my first name for official purposes. I'm not sure how I'd feel about changing my name. Realistically, I think I'd probably only change my name entirely if I wanted to transition to male and needed a more masculine name to help me pass. The jury is still out on whether I might switch the order of my first and middle names, though.

Surgery is always a big deal and it's pretty scary. I know it's pretty early for me still, but I'm kind of in the same place but with bottom surgery, the recovery for which sounds fairly brutal and terrifying to me.

I don't really have horrible genital dysphoria, and I actually kind of even like the idea of having gender-nonconforming bits, but I can't help but feel like it's holding me back and they're just in the way and I'll feel a lot better when I'm not reminded of what's in my pants all the time. But yeah, it's scary.

There's no way I can afford it yet, but I'm turning 27 this October, and if I play my cards right, I may have a good job with good insurance in Boston, MA within the next few years. Academia isn't exactly what my creative side craves, but it's quickly becoming a more attractive option to me, especially with insurance becoming increasingly important to me.

Similarly, I've been thinking about getting an orchi in the meantime instead, but that's probably not going to give me what I want either.

Yeah, it's a lot to consider. And yeah, it can be a huge cost. I'm kind of torn right now because I'm saving up for a car, too.

I've tried to look into my insurance company's policies about transition-related surgery. Weirdly, their policy document seems to specifically include everything except top surgery. It says to look at their document on mastectomies for more information, but that document only seems to address cancer-related mastectomies and reconstruction. However, it looks like it would be hard for me to get insurance coverage without being on T, so that kind of sucks.

It's a big decision. Part of me is very hesitant to have surgery if I can avoid it. I mean, there are risks, and healing can be a long process. My only experience with surgery was a gum graft procedure I had done to correct a receding gum line, and recovery from that was bad enough that I'm very mindful of weighing out the risks and benefits of invasive procedures. But I think I would be a lot happier with a flat chest.

I've developed a horrible habit of trying to figure out whether everyone around me is cis or trans.

I do this too, sometimes. I also get excited when I meet someone whom I know is trans. I'm so paranoid about not being obvious about it, because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable.
 

Samsonet

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You know those articles that are about understanding how the opposite sex thinks? I appreciate what they're trying to do, but they're also kinda confusing when it comes to thinking about gender identity. Like... males are supposed to be stoic, not inclined to tell you about their day. Does that mean a DFAB person who thinks like that is male? Or just masculine? Or just untraditionally feminine? If I check off more of the 'male' boxes on one day but more of the 'female' boxes the next, am I genderfluid or just a hormone-suffering teenager?

I'm trying to tell myself it doesn't matter what my gender is, but just a couple days ago someone misspelled my name with the feminine form and it felt wrong.
 

DancingMaenid

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I don't know, I find that a lot of those "understand the opposite sex" articles come across as pop psychology based on gender stereotypes more than anything else. Hormones and gender roles can affect people's behavior and how they express themselves. I've heard trans men say that they couldn't cry as easily after starting testosterone, for example. And some men act stoic because they grew up exposed to the idea that men are supposed to be "tough" and not show their feelings. But most people have a mix of "masculine" and "feminine" traits.

Gender identity is complicated, and doesn't have a clear definition or explanation that everyone can agree on. I think it ultimately comes down to the bigger picture of how you want to be seen and how you interpret your feelings. Butch women may have very short haircuts, wear men's clothing, and generally have little interest in being feminine, but they ultimately see themselves as women and would probably prefer for other people to see them as (masculine) women. Trans men and DFAB non-binary people may also wear men's clothes, cut their hair short, etc. But for them, there's an element of wanting to be seen as male.
 

kuwisdelu

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You know those articles that are about understanding how the opposite sex thinks? I appreciate what they're trying to do, but they're also kinda confusing when it comes to thinking about gender identity.

They're all basically bullshit. Don't worry about them.

Gender identity isn't about "feeling male" or "feeling female", or "thinking male" or "thinking female", and those are misconceptions that have kept a lot of trans people (including myself) questioning and delaying for far too long, because we didn't fit the narrative and didn't think that we were "trans enough".

Identity is a wibbly-wobbly, selfy-welfy ball of... you...

It's like psychic paper. What does it say?

What do you want it to say when other people see it?
 
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You know those articles that are about understanding how the opposite sex thinks? I appreciate what they're trying to do, but they're also kinda confusing when it comes to thinking about gender identity.

Most of them are bullshit. Gender identity, aside from the fact that's it's personal and individual, is also affected by a lot of other complicated factors, like culture, age, lived experience, and lots more.

It's complicated, intricate, situational, and, most especially, personal. I wish we could as a culture stop making so much so damned binary.
 

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Yeah, who needs binary when we have hexadecimals!

You know, back in NYC I went to a place called The Big Gay Ice Cream Shop. It made me wonder if there was a Big Straight Ice Cream Shop where you only get one flavor out of two and you can't pick which.
 

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My city has a big annual convention-type thing for trans people, and I just registered for it for the first time. It's a few months away, but I'm excited! I haven't gone in past years, either because I didn't feel out enough or I thought it would be too geared toward binary trans people who are actively transitioning to be a good fit for me. But I want to give it a chance, and since I'm thinking of surgery now, I could really use a chance to get some local information and maybe get to know people.
 

kuwisdelu

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My city has a big annual convention-type thing for trans people, and I just registered for it for the first time. It's a few months away, but I'm excited! I haven't gone in past years, either because I didn't feel out enough or I thought it would be too geared toward binary trans people who are actively transitioning to be a good fit for me. But I want to give it a chance, and since I'm thinking of surgery now, I could really use a chance to get some local information and maybe get to know people.

While trans women seem overrepresented in the media (compared to trans men), I've noticed that trans masculine people seem to be much more common in community activism scene type stuff, so you may not feel as out of place as you think you might.

Sounds cool. Hope it goes well!
 

kuwisdelu

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Ugh. I still hate my voice. Especially when I have to talk loudly like around my parents (as if that weren't stressful enough already).
 

kuwisdelu

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#transgirltroubles

Being constantly worried whether I have a bulge in my shorts.

But yay shorts! I never got to wear them as a dude.