The "T" Party.

Cliff Face:

*major hugs*

Okay, I don't want to get gross here or anything, but about the taste/smell thing...well, I'm not sure how much detail I want to get in on a public board, but the smell issue is one of the first things that hormone therapy corrects, after about a month. The taste issue is generally corrected by a combination of that and becoming sterile (or nearly sterile--NEVER trust this as a form of birth control), and that only takes a little longer. And that's pre-surgery. Post-surgery, things will generally be better, too.

Also, one thing that might help your self-confidence would be to read a bit about transgender neurology studies, about how little difference there really is between transitioned trans women and cis women in terms of appearance and function, and some general pro-trans literature. (I'll post a link below.)

And, it might seem like a matter of semantics, and you have the right to identify however you feel comfortable, but it might help to not think of yourself as a man who wants to become a woman, because if you're trans, you're not. You're not even a "woman trapped in a man's body." You're a woman with a birth defect. (By the way, a surprising number of cisgender women don't have XX chromosomes. Lots of cis women have as much torso hair as most men. Bone structure that isn't the female average is fairly common. Really, a lot of things we're self-conscious about, that make us feel fake, is stuff that bothers other women as well.)

And that's not some silly delusion, not some politically-correct pretense. You are biologically female when it comes to your brain. Literally, not metaphorically. (And yes, there is a real biological difference between men and women, but it doesn't do anywhere near as much as many people assume. Mostly it just affects how you view yourself subconsciously, how your internal body map is laid out, and judging by my experiences and what I've heard from others, what puberty your subconscious expects.)

We spend our lives getting bombarded with ignorant media depictions of "gay men who want to get surgery to look more like women to trick straight men." Even some of our allies often try to portray it as "feminine men who like girly things, so they would feel more comfortable looking like women so they fit gender roles better." But trans women are really just women, and are just as varied, and often go on to have relatively "normal" lives--whatever "normal" means.

Anyway, here's a link that kinda works as a pep talk when I'm feeling down.

http://binarysubverter.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/trans-101/

Thanks Mara and Diana.

Yes, I know that I'm "female with a birth defect". But because I'm stealth, trying to fit in as a man in my real life as much as seems necessary... I still think of myself as "man who wants to be woman" or some variation thereof. At best, I think "trans woman" about myself, which still doesn't make me feel any better.

As for the "gross" part of taste/smell... well, I've wanted to ask about that for a while, but I didn't because I thought it was a little out there or too personal or just not something you talk about.

Glad I did, because your answer allays some of my worries.

...

In other T news, I had a dream sometime this morning, where I was moving on to a new life (kind of like the afterlife, I suppose, in that it wasn't anything much like real life) and I was female in that dream, physically and mentally. BUT I kept getting sidetracked with trying to get free of this man who kept showing up. I think it was my subconscious saying, "When you wake up, you're going to still have a penis, so don't get too excited about this right now."

It was incredibly frustrating, but does make me feel more certain about who I really am.

Anyway, thought I'd share.

AMCrenshaw said:

everywhere i read online discusses TS in terms of "targeting" and it's like they make the whole thing sound like a violent/stalker/predator-ish enterprise.

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The notion of transpeople as predators is not a new one as you pointed out. I hear straight cismen gripe about being afraid of being seduced or "tricked" by transwomen. Many have a story about a "friend of a friend" who got with a hot mama at a club only to discover a 'horrifying' secret once they got back to her place. All of which stems, of course, from the self-entitled notion that transwomen ought to have the status of their non-op or pre-op genitals tattooed on their foreheads. Many men feel so entitled they believe transwomen must fully disclose everything about themselves in advance otherwise they're being somehow devious, even though we'd hardly expect a cisperson to disclose everything about their genitals or sexual history to a complete stranger in the same circumstances.

As for the idea of predation, it's because [cis]men are sensitive souls who are not used to the ickiness of unwanted sexual advances--something women like me deal with every goddamn day.

We can see this in action in modern culture when the game "Dragon Age 2" came out. In this progressive game, there are both gay and straight characters, and one gay male NPC (non-player character) will hit on the male main protagonist. There is no way to avoid this. Straight Male Gamers shrieked in protest. To my great delight, Bioware (game developer) told them to get over it. Fabulous article here

The article writer's comment to the irritated Straight Male Gamer: "Gee. Now he knows how pretty much every woman in the world has felt at some point having to put up with unwanted advances from straight men. Poor baby."

And I say "poor baby" to the men who act fearful of transwomen or portray them as predators. Instead of vilifying sexually aggressive transwomen, maybe they ought to take a look in the mirror and consider their own predatory nature in unwanted sexual advances.

Deal with it, straight cismen.

Clarification for AMCrenshaw (who asked) and anyone else unfamiliar with the term:

A "cisgender" person is a non-trans person, someone who feels their assigned sex (sex at birth) and mental gender match. ("Trans+gender" basically means "cross-gender"--biology and mentality may be swapped, while "cis+gender" means basically "same-gender"--biology and mentality are the same)

So by "cisman" in my post, I mean a person with XY chromosomes, assigned biologically male at birth, who continues to see themselves as male (the majority of the male population, basically.)

Going back to Diana's post, one thing leapt out at me because I can entirely sympathise.

I began, at the age of 15, to study the occult and mysticism to find a way to bend reality and transform myself magickally into a real woman.

Click to expand...

I began to study the occult at 15 also, though I didn't realise I was trans until I was 18 or so, when I first started having sex. Granted, everything suddenly made sense to me at that point, like I had just figured out why I interacted with others the way I did all those previous years, but at 18 I became convinced that the magic of the mind could make me physically female.

It was a long time before I gave up on that idea. As late as 23 or 24 I was still convinced that the solution to my problems was magic. I didn't spend as much time as Diana trying to bend reality - I more fell into the hopeful-depression category, which left me trying to use just my mind instead of things like candles (for the most part).

Anyway, just thought I'd share that.

(And as it happens, my preferred name of Cate comes from the Greek Goddess Hecate, who I've identified with since I was 15. Cate is just Hecate without the "He", which makes me happy for both name and wordplay.

And I should point out, as many people on here have asked me before - I don't particularly want people to refer to me by feminine names/pronouns, as I find it interrupts my stealthness. But honestly, you can call me whatever you want. Once I'm transitioning, my username will change to "Cate something-or-other", at which point yes, I'd like to be referred to femininely. But right now? I'm fine with Cliff, he, etc. for stealth purposes.)

I went to a Charismatic evangelical church from the time I was 15-16 until about 17, and mysticism and supernatural beliefs were a big part of it. I outgrew it, and then the church collapsed, but I definitely fit the "transsexual people like weird magical stuff" stereotype.

Even my (trans) girlfriend, who is a third-generation atheist and skeptic, has an occasional interest in the occult, despite not believing in it. She half-jokingly said that trans people have a gene for unusual religious beliefs.

(And if you look at certain societies, there's a cultural belief that gender variant people have magical powers, but that's a lot more complex than just transsexualism.)

I think that thirst for the supernatural is born from a dissatisfaction with the natural world. A trans or genderqueer person realizes they fall far outside the mainstream notion of "normality" and the definition of "normal" is unsatisfying or even stifling.

So if I feel "normality" has me in a chokehold, I'll start searching for the paranormal intead. "There must be something more than this," I'd often tell myself as a kid. Not because I necessarily saw evidence to support this, but because I desperately wanted there to be. Reality had so many flaws, I preferred to craft a non-reality.

I still think this is a major motivator for me as a speculative fiction writer. In fantasy or science fiction, I can craft worlds that break or bend the cultural norms and "rules" that I find so restricting in real life. It's not just escapism, but social commentary by parallel construction.

If I wrote realistic fiction, I'd be told my matriarchal society was implausible and my male characters are too effeminate. I'd be forced to constantly reinforce the status quo for my work to be considered "realistic/plausible." But if I'm writing about the far future or a society of centaurs instead of humans, suddenly those rigid expectations are discarded and I'm allowed to craft an alternative society.

Instead of the occult, I've turned to reading and writing social science fiction to vent the pressure of rigid social pressure and gender norms that are forced upon me. Using that loophole of the fantastic to "get away with" writing alternative society/gender, I hope to satisfy other readers as well. I'm sure not just genderqueer, but plenty of cisfolk are ready to read something fresh instead of these same phony alpha male stereotypes rehashed over and over.

This month I've been writing my first non-fantasy piece of serious fiction. It's a mainstream romance, in that it's about sexual attraction and relationships and has no elves or dragons or cyborgs or anything.

Curiously, though I far prefer fantasy/sci-fi in what I read/watch, I've really enjoyed writing this romance. And I think it's because it is the catharsis of breaking heteronormative culture. I don't have any trans people in this script, but I have 2 girls who wind up falling for each other.

And Kat, you just revealed to me why I find this so cathartic. It's because when I was writing fantasy, any attempts I made to show that differences in people were A-okay didn't have as much impact on my psyche as doing the same with a "realistic" setting.

It's a good thing, I think. I feel good about myself. I still love Fantasy, but now I know that other genres can give me a different kind of happiness.

On the subject of fantasy, there's a stereotype, generally believed to have a basis in truth, of (mostly mid-30s and younger) transsexual people liking role-playing hobbies. (Tabletop games like Dungeons & Dragons and Vampire and Mutants & Masterminds, online games like World of Warcraft, online freeform RP and collorative storytelling, and similar stuff.) Out of the four people I game with regularly now, two are trans. And most of my trans friends are people I met through gaming forums.

RP hobbies are generally about escapism and playing a different role, and many of us used them as safe places to explore our gender identities without having to think about all the scary implications of transition. Most RP hobbies include strong fantasy, paranormal, or sci-fi elements. And freeform RP and tabletop RPGs both include a strong emphasis on improv storytelling and character immersion.

Diana Hignutt said:

I know that DMing back in the early days of D&D made me a far better writer than I would have otherwise been.

I also had a Paladin character that got gender changed into a female. Gosh, how did that happen?

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I have an entire campaign setting for a game I wrote that I later realized was mostly a big metaphor for being trans, with a good measure of gay thrown in as well.

felt like deleting this comment, but cool conversation!

I used to play D&D, and a few variants. I was almost always a female character. When I first started, I was a male Kender (such fun!) but after that, female all the way.

Now that I don't see those people anymore (a number of them were toxic) I occasionally play Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2. It's a lot of fun.

I've always been interested in Sci-Fi and Fantasy, though. From about the age of 6 or so I was reading a periodic picture-book that was fantasy one year, SF the next year. I loved it.

And then I moved on to Warhammer 40k and Blood Bowl (an associated game, though kind of Fantasy Football to 40k's SF War bent).

Ardent Kat said:

Instead of the occult, I've turned to reading and writing social science fiction to vent the pressure of rigid social pressure and gender norms that are forced upon me. Using that loophole of the fantastic to "get away with" writing alternative society/gender, I hope to satisfy other readers as well. I'm sure not just genderqueer, but plenty of cisfolk are ready to read something fresh instead of these same phony alpha male stereotypes rehashed over and over.

Click to expand...

This whole comment rung really true for me and is probably a big part of the reason why I like reading/writing science fiction and fantasy. It is more than escapism. When done right it can become a way to get people to think outside the box, or even a vehicle for social change. When you explore those different possible worlds through fiction they start to seem a lot more plausible.

Diana Hignutt said:

Just a reminder to those lurking. Gender Dysphoria can kill. Repression can kill. It very nearly killed me. Try to find a way to be who you are. Don't lie to yourself. Don't try and meet others' expectations. They can't die for you. And they can't live for you.

Be safe and be true to yourself.

I love you all.

Click to expand...

Very well said. *hugs*

I'm torn right now.

You see, I'm taking a type of medication that sometimes causes the growth of breast tissue. Well, I'm getting little boobs - really quite small so far, but I can tell that they're coming in.

So on the one hand, I desperately want breasts, so I'm thinking, "Hey, this is great!" On the other hand, I don't want breasts before I'm ready to transition, which requires 2 things - money, and independence from my family in case they decide to be dicks about my decision.

Hence, I'm torn.

And I can't switch medications either. There's a liquid I used to take for a while, but it wound up making me throw up, as well as giving me a lot of nervous/anxious energy that was disrupting tasks in my life. And I can't swallow pills, which all the other medications are. (What I take now is something that dissolves in saliva, and tastes kind of fruity.)

Even if I managed to learn to swallow pills, the next step that my doctor wants to take is a certain pill. It has shown great success in many people, so it'd probably ease my symptoms more than this current medication.

BUT.

This particular pill would require me to stay in hospital overnight the first night I took it, and then have monthly heart tests, which would be a pain in the butt for my schedule, and anyway, I really can't afford that now.

And if I stuck with that pill, then I'd be having heart tests for the rest of my life. I think this would be counteracting the whole, "Just forget my problem and move on," approach that I'm taking with this current soluble medication (which doesn't require any tests).

So, I'm not changing my medication, but I'm also not sure how I feel about growing (albeit rather slowly) breasts, when I can't afford to transition or have independence from my family.

And I don't intend to be a "man" with breasts!

*sigh*

/sharing

Cliff Face, you aren't a man with breasts. You're a woman with breasts, and I think it's lovely (insofar as you're comfortable with it, that is). I remember in university I had made a transwoman friend in my psychology class. She was pre-transition, but started hormone therapy in the middle of the semester. I still remember how absolutely proud and GLOWING she was one day after class when she popped open the front of her shirt to show me her budding chest. They were small, but markedly effeminate, and the absolute look of pride and sexual confidence on her face was stunning to me at the time.

The point I'm trying to make is this: Although this is a highly personal matter to you, I don't think you have to take an all-or-nothing approach to this. I know it's none of my business, but I know that, for a lot of people, transitioning isn't an overnight thing. It's a gradual process of stripping yourself of the heteronormative behavior you've adopted over time and, physically, of your misattributed sex. Choppin' off any man parts or growing breasts won't make you more of a woman. You're already that woman, and I think you should embrace the new knockers regardless of the socioeconomic environment you're currently in.

I don't mean to play the online psychologist, but is it possible you're just nervous about transitioning in general, that progress in this area has been yearned for so painstakingly long that the sudden realization of a small part of it is somewhat jarring to you? ::shrugs::

Again, this is none of my business, but I just wanted to drop in and offer some support. Hope you feel better and can come to terms with whatever decision you make.

I said "man" with breasts, like that (with quote marks) because I'm living as a man. I haven't told anyone I physically see in real life that I'm trans - they just think I'm some guy. So by "man" with breasts, I mean - if I grew bigger boobs, and couldn't cover them up, I might still not want to live as a woman, due to certain stresses in my life (such as having to then tell my family that I'm trans) so I would be living as a man, only a "man" with breasts.

Just to clarify.

not_HarryS said:

I don't mean to play the online psychologist, but is it possible you're just nervous about transitioning in general, that progress in this area has been yearned for so painstakingly long that the sudden realization of a small part of it is somewhat jarring to you? ::shrugs::

Click to expand...

This part is quite astute, I think. I'm very nervous about transitioning. First, there's my family's reaction. Then there's the presumably slow process of feminising my face. But there's also my voice to take into consideration. Right now, I can't do a consistent feminine voice to save my life. I try every morning in the shower, and whenever I'm home alone I try using a feminine voice quite regularly. But I just can't do it.

So, coming back to the whole "growing breasts" thing - if I did decide to live as a woman and just deal with my family and whatever may come of that, then there's still all this huge nervousness about concerns of being "realistic" as a woman.

I use "realistic" in quote marks, because there are such a variety of women in the world, being "realistic" is a fallacy, I suppose. But still - most of the women I see around the place have certain things in common. Again we come to the voice, which most women I know tend to have an easy time with (naturally - it's their natural voice).

It's not even so much a matter of emotions, such as fitting in or being happy with my body and its attributes (such as hair levels, and voice) - it's a matter of concern. I live in a somewhat rough area, and it's not unheard of for people to be beaten senseless (or worse) for all sorts of reasons down here. I live my life trying not to give anyone a reason. But if I were an "unrealistic" woman while living as a woman in the early stages of transitioning, then that could easily constitute a reason for the narrow-minded ruffians of the area to pick on me.

Coming back to your quote: yes, I have yearned for this for a very long time (a solid third of my life, since I was 18 and right up to now, at 27) and it is jarring, because if I do continue to develop breasts before I'm emotionally ready to transition (and monetarily ready, which is very much embedded in those emotions) then it forces the issue before I'm in a comfortable position.

...

But I'm choosing to be optimistic. Maybe my mum, who I live with, would be fine with my wanting to transition, and maybe I'd "pass" as a ciswoman if I gave it a really good try, and maybe all the people I know right now would either not realise it's me in the new skirt, or at least be open-minded about the whole thing...

*shrug*

Thanks for drawing this internal debate out of me in the written word, by the way. I always feel more convinced of my emotions after I've written them down.

It's still daunting, but I'm reminded of what Diana said - trans issues can kill. Even if I did get beaten up by narrow-minded idiots before I was convincingly feminine, hey, at least I'd still be alive. I wouldn't have let my own issues push me over the edge.

It's something to be proud of, I suppose. I don't feel particularly proud. Brave maybe...



/ramble

CliffFace, take heart, sis. There's more than one way for you to express your transness. There's no ranking of "first class" or "second class" transfolk depending on whether you want to transition, decided to transition, can afford to, or end up able to "pass" or "go stealth" as a woman one day.

What's ideal for one trans person may not be ideal for another. It's only natural that your friends, out of eagerness to support you, will urge you to make the choice that worked best for them. But ultimately, the power is in your hands to express your identity in your own way and live the life that's best for you.

I think there's a well-meaning but potentially harmful pressure to transition in the trans community, but remember, you can be transgender without being transsexual. (No definition of the difference between the two is perfect, but http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070317132322AAPshiethis one comes close enough for our purposes.) I see a lot of verbage online of "when you transition" like it's a foregone conclusion. I often have to bite my tongue to keep from saying, "Whoah, whoah. You mean if she chooses to transition."

Many transsexuals have some degree of body disphoria and feel miserable living as their assigned sex. Others do not. Plenty of people choose to live life as their prefered gender without hormones or surgery. Not just because they can't afford it, but because they choose to. What's a perfect solution for one person might not be for another.

I used to identify myself to others as transgender. XX chromasomes, assigned female, raised female with a male brain & self-image my entire life. (Ever since infancy, I knew I was the prince or the dashing knight in the stories I read and the movies I watched--never the female character. I remember a time at age 7, looking at the bulge of the fly in my jeans and wondering when my penis would grow in one day.) But I never had body dismorphia about my female body. I was disappointed by being female. I considered it to be the less appealing of two options, but it worked fine for my purposes.

At the end of the day, I decided it was fine to let people use female pronouns for me. I decided I didn't want to transition even if I had the resources. I was comfortable enough in my own skin that transitioning looked like waaay too much stress in my life, physically, emotionally, and socially. Again, that's not what's best for everyone, but it was the best choice for me & my life. For some trans people, life as-is just isn't working. Transition feels like necessity. For others, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies just fine. I was comfortable and successful in my life and intimate relations that transitioning was unnecessary.

Instead of my body matching my ideal, what was most important to me was that I was allowed to act male, talk male, and do all the things my male self wanted. People could go ahead and call me "she" or "her", but I would not let people dictate my behavior. I'm still a vocal advocate for allowing women and men to behave in any fashion they like--especially in roles or behaviors that are socially acceptable to one sex, but not the other. (I love to cheer on the guys who wear makeup or skirts and women who work to get big biceps.)

Anyway, when I came out as transgender, I found a community that was simultaneously supportive and hurtful. My FtM friend was eager to show me chest-binders and tell me about hormone options. That was kind of him, but it started to get annoying when he kept bringing it up and pushing it on me when I'd made it clear multiple times that I wasn't interested. When I finally confronted him and told him to quit it, he said he was only pressuring me because he thought it was what I really wanted and I was just living in denial. ={ Good intentions, but not appreciated. I felt increasingly uncomfortable in my group of FtM friends. It felt like the gender police sometimes where female-perceived behavior was frowned upon and corrected, while acting "macho" (even if these behaviors or comments were hurtfully misogynistic) was rewarded. The "winners" were the ones who best lived up to alpha male stereotypes, while the "losers" were the ones who let their femininity seep through the cracks. My gender-relaxed self was frequently the target of raised eyebrows, presumably because I wasn't playing the boy game hard enough.

I certainly do not mean to project this behavior onto the larger trans community. (Okay? I promise! This is just my own anectodal experience, and everyone else may have a radically different one.) But for me, I felt squeezed into a behavioral mold as much by the TS community as I did by the cisgender community.

Whenever I identified myself as "transgender", the assumption from other trans folk always seemed to be that I intended to transition. I felt like I was being treated like someone in some half-baked state that would "get there eventually." But as far as my goals for my life, I was already there. I was living as "out" and male and genderfucked as I wanted to be. The pressure to do more to transition made me feel rejected as inadequate. Today, I'm definitely trans spectrum, but I don't use the term "transgender" any longer just because I'm tired of the assumptions and pressure to transition this seems to bring along with it. I prefer "genderqueer" or "androgyne" because it seems to have less strict behavioral expectations.

All this is to say: Not every transgender is an aspiring transsexual. Some of us are cool with the skin we're in, even if it wasn't our first choice. It's possible, CliffFace, that projecting a male image, while nurturing your female persona is what's best for you and your life.

There's some awesome resources and encouraging transwomen in this thread. Just wanted to remind you (and others reading) that you don't have to transition to be the woman you want to be.

Thanks you 2. *hugs*

To be honest, these last couple of days I've been doubting if I could bring myself to transition.

For 9 years I've wanted to look and act as female as I feel, but held myself in check because of fear of how the public might react (and family, for instance).

But I never doubted that I would transition if I could afford it comfortably.

Then a couple of nights ago, I was in bed, trying to get to sleep, and I realised what a huge issue it would be to say goodbye to my penis forever.

While I do not wish to act particularly male, don't really like sports or cars etc. (though there's a lot more to it than that) - I do happen to get some sort of pleasure out of my penis. (Funny that - a sexual organ giving pleasure...)

And 2 nights ago in bed, it just struck me all of a sudden - if I had gender reassignment surgery, I would never have a penis again. I think I would much rather have a vagina, but still... the penis is the only sexual organ I've ever had, so it's imbedded in my pleasure-psyche.

I think that night I realised just how enormous an issue this really is.

I've thought of myself as a lesbian for 9 years. Could I turn my back on that and live as a woman, only one who has a penis? Like, if I grew breasts, took estrogen, had laser hair removal, all the things I was planning on doing pre-surgery - but then didn't have the surgery? Could I deal with that with my lesbian identity so firmly imbedded in my mind?

The annoying thing is, my judgement is clouded when it comes to that last option. I keep thinking, "If I was physically female, but with a penis, what girl would want to be with me?" I start thinking about how fewer women would be sexually attracted to me, and I get depressed thinking about possibly being alone forever.

I know, of course, that life takes all kinds, and presumably with the right attitude and some gentle persistence, everything should work out just fine. But the doubt is still there.

It's something I'm going to have to work out for myself.

...

Out of curiosity - with me having just male parts... is it possible for gender surgery that would give me a vagina, but which wouldn't get rid of my penis? Do doctors even do that?

Perhaps hermaphroditism would be an option for me - living socially as female (breasts, feminised face, female clothes) but having both sets of genitals in the bedroom?

That just seems, mathematically, to be a decent option for me - it satisfies my desire to have a vagina, without giving the stress of losing my penis.

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do...

Thanks for listening.

Cliff, these are reasonable questions, and you're neither the first nor the last to have them--but you need to talk to a therapist, because no one else is you, and you need to find what's right for you.