Protagonists "in the know" or not

Leanan-Sidhe · Jan 12, 2010

I don't think we discussed this already in the massive urban fantasy thread, but I just skimmed to check, so I could be wrong.

So usually in urban fantasy (and sometimes in other fantasy subgenres) magic is hidden in some way. The public might be completely in the dark about its existance, or they know its there but the darkers details are kept secret. Characters either know about this or not, leading (in my mind) to two types of protagonists.

You`ve got your Harry Potters, who are going about their regular lives until the magical world comes and finds them. And you`ve got your Harry Dresdens, who are already veterans in the world of magic when the story starts. I think this can make a huge difference in a story, as you're either learning about the magical world alongside the protagonist, who`s as ignorant as you, or you`re having the rules of the world explained to you by the protagonist as they`re in the middle of slaying a demon.

I seem to see more of the Harry Dresden type in adult urban fantasy, but I could just be reading a limited selection of the genre. Or maybe its less of type 1/type 2 thing and more of a spectrum.

So my question for everyone is (Right, I have a question. Not just rambling.) do you prefer reading one type to the other? Which type do you write? How do you think it affects the story?

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 12, 2010

I think type-Dresden is more common in adult fantasy, though I admit to not having read a large portion of the UF books out there. I know almost for a fact that type-Potter is vastly more common in kids’ fantasy.

Personally, I prefer type-Dresden, first from my secondary world fantasy background, and also because it’s very hard to sympathize with a type-P character when I’m so used to the tropes of fantasy fiction, and know by dint of where I found it in the bookstore (and also from the back-cover blurb) whether or not there’s going to be magic involved. Since when the MC goes through the UF equivalent of Refusing the Call—accepting the existence of whatever fantasy element is present, it tends to move from sympathetic to annoying pretty darn fast.

I mean, when the BCB talks about the how the MC must cope with the fact that they are a faerie changeling, it doesn’t take much to guess that the funny shadows she sees following her are a)fairy body-guards or the curious or b) evil goblins/fae from the Unseelie Court. Whereas, if the I’m already familiar with the fantasy aspect, and the character knows about it, and I know they know about it, then I don’t feel like the author is constantly engaged in a futile attempt to shock and awe me with her magical storm sprites.

Kweei · Jan 12, 2010

Leanan-Sidhe said:
So my question for everyone is (Right, I have a question. Not just rambling.) do you prefer reading one type to the other? Which type do you write? How do you think it affects the story?

I don't prefer a type as long as it's interesting. Though, I do think that the "earn with the protagonist" type can be tricky because there are so many tropes you can fall into that quickly become cliches.

I suppose that could be true of the Dresden-type example, but I don't feel the problem with it as much as the first type.

I write both. It just depends on the story. If the protagonist would be better not knowing because it works better for the environment, I go with that. if not, I go the other way.

Yes, my response is incredibly helpful, LOL

Stacia Kane · Jan 12, 2010

I've written both, and enjoy both. It really just depends on the story.

VictoriaJBarnes · Jan 13, 2010

I prefer to write H-Dresden, but I read either. As long as the story itself is enjoyable I really don't mind

ink wench · Jan 13, 2010

Interesting because I was about to say I've written both, but then I realized that even in the stories where my MC knows about magic, she usually also finds out there's a lot she doesn't know about it.

It really depends on the type of story though. For the most part, I don't write typical UFs. Most of what I write is YA, and the stories are about someone who falls into something bad and mysterious. Both types are fun to read.

ChaosTitan · Jan 13, 2010

I love reading both types. It's all about the execution and the story being told.

The H-Potter type of story worked really well in Nicole Peeler's "Tempest Rising," when the heroine discovers she's half-selkie and that there's an entire world of mythological creatures living under her nose. A version of it also works well in Molly Harper's Nice Girls series--vampires are "out," but our heroine is turned into one and has to learn to live as a magical creature.

But I do think the majority of the books on my shelves have heroes/heroines who are aware of magic or already in the middle of it.

I also tend to write more about the H-Dresden characters. I think it's because I got a little tired of the "thrust into a magical world she didn't know existed and has to sink or swim" story line for a while. One of the things I love about UF right now is that so many heroes/heroines know about the unknowns/magic/vamps/whatevers. I still enjoy a "WTF is going on?" side character (Alex, in my own book, frex) or two, but knowledge of a situation can be just as fun as ignorance.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 13, 2010

I think one issue is that there are only so many ways to portray the “ZOMG Magic!”, which often takes up a large part of the beginning of a book, whereas if the character knows about it, you have more flexibility in how to handle those opening chapters. I mean, I'd rather here about "ZOMG Conspiracy!" straight off, instead of having to wade through both ZOMG! moments consecutively.

I do enjoy both, but I prefer a Type-D over a Type-P. Perhaps that's my secondary world bias creeping in, where most people know there's magic an it's the plot that surprises them.

dclary · Jan 19, 2010

The book I'm starting I'm trying to walk the line. The protagonist is new to the realm, and new to the concept of being Fae-related (he finds out, the hard way, of course... being attacked by something that recognizes the power he doesn't know he has).

However, he *is* a member of our society, and so urban fantasy mythos are not unknown to him. He recognizes items as key portals, knows what slayers are, can tell the difference between demons and zombies (usually), and generally isn't fazed by these things. His big learning curve is in uncovering and understanding both his potential, and how he can best use his powers to stop forces of evil arrayed against him.

Anaquana · Jan 19, 2010

I love both. I don't write either, though. My world is a world that has had the Veil between Earth and Faerie fall, so magic and supernatural creatures are everyday occurrences.

HConn · Jan 20, 2010

Stacia Kane said:
It really just depends on the story.

Ditto.

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 20, 2010

As far as I can remember, the ones I've read are the H-Dresden type.

Liosse de Velishaf said:
ZOMG!

What does that acronym stand for?

Anaquana · Jan 20, 2010

Ferret, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zomg

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 20, 2010

"fasion?" Don't they bother to spell check on that site?

shaldna · Feb 2, 2010

my UF's tend to be centred around the same expanded group of people. Some of whom are aware, some of whom aren't.

There's a mix of people with different attitudes and knowledge level. And the ones who know are making damn sure to keep it to themselves.

LynnKHollander · Feb 14, 2010

I have a female MC who is trying to save the universe, but who knows little about vampires. She's dating an atheist vampire who doesn't believe in magic. On the other hand, they live in San Francisco, where many 'mundane' things are very strange already.

Stormhawk · Feb 28, 2010

My protagonist is Type-P, with a little caveat - she was exposed to some magic when she was a kid, so she's a little more accepting than the average person would be (that, and she's a geek). She never goes through the Refusing the Call or disbeleiving what she sees and trying to crawl back to normalacy - she sees a monster and accepts that there's some weird stuff going on (that, or worried that she's gone even more insane, but mostly worried that it's going to eat her).

About the only thing she baulks at is not wanting to accept the fact that she died and came back as a kid, because to paraphrase "WTF, I would remember that!".

Anaximander · Mar 20, 2010

I have a WIP (currently shelved) in which I cheat and do both. The story follows a guy who lives in the real, ordinary world that we all know, who therefore isn't familiar with magic at all. However, in an alternate world where magic exists, he's a warlock who fights demons and evil creatures, and in that world, a powerful enemy uses dark magic to drain magical energy from all the worlds to strengthen himself. In doing so, he weakens the barrier, so that the worlds begin to bleed together, and the ordinary-world guy finds things seeping into his dreams, and then his daily life, as he gains magical powers and a set of memories from his other life. The characters merge, and he ends up chasing the enemy and his minions across all the worlds, each a variation on the same theme, and each with a different kind of magic.

I had a lot of fun writing that one, but I think it needs a lot of work before it could be published. Still, the point is that you can play with knowledge acquisition when you're talking about magic. My story wasn't a pure Type-D or Type-P - I had a Type-P character who acquired the memories and abilities of a Type-D (or was it a Type-D who inhabited a Type-P?) so I got to play with both sides.

Red-Green · Mar 23, 2010

The book I have on sub right now is not quite one of the other. My MC not only is unaware of any magic, once he learns about it, he doesn't give a shit. And he does not in fact possess any magical abilities himself, but manages to survive the book without them. Soo...I guess we'll see whether any editors go for that.

Satori1977 · Mar 23, 2010

Pretty much what everyone else said. Either is good, as long as it works for the story and is told well.

GregB · Mar 29, 2010

Both are good, but I think Potter types are more challenging to write well, precisely during that discovery phase. I agree with Liosse that few things are as annoying as the Scully type with a really overdeveloped skepticism.

hillaryjacques · Apr 7, 2010

And then there is a new type where the character is in the know and the author isn't. Spent the morning trying to decode amended outline notes from a very late writing session in which my MC figures something out due to...scrawl, scrawl, obscenity, scrawl...

How can an idea that I thought of and wrote down disappear in less than 12 hours time?

Zoombie · Apr 8, 2010

Ideas run away far faster than they should.

As for me, I enjoy both kinds of stories. They both have their pitfalls, because "What is that new thing?" can get just as annoying and unbelievable as "As you know Tom" conversations.

Like, seriously Harry, READ A BOOK. Just go to Hogwarts library and pick up a history of magic book and do some goddamn reading. Even if its just some cursory knowledge, it should still HELP.

<cough>

My current story starts with the character not in the know, and the first half involves learning about magic and how it works. I like to think that I've come up with a magical universe that is at least slightly different from everyone else's...and by that, I mean I stole from Unknown Armies rather than World of Darkness.

shaldna · Apr 8, 2010

Anaximander said:
I have a WIP (currently shelved) in which I cheat and do both. The story follows a guy who lives in the real, ordinary world that we all know, who therefore isn't familiar with magic at all. However, in an alternate world where magic exists, he's a warlock who fights demons and evil creatures, and in that world, a powerful enemy uses dark magic to drain magical energy from all the worlds to strengthen himself. In doing so, he weakens the barrier, so that the worlds begin to bleed together, and the ordinary-world guy finds things seeping into his dreams, and then his daily life, as he gains magical powers and a set of memories from his other life. The characters merge, and he ends up chasing the enemy and his minions across all the worlds, each a variation on the same theme, and each with a different kind of magic.

I had a lot of fun writing that one, but I think it needs a lot of work before it could be published. Still, the point is that you can play with knowledge acquisition when you're talking about magic. My story wasn't a pure Type-D or Type-P - I had a Type-P character who acquired the memories and abilities of a Type-D (or was it a Type-D who inhabited a Type-P?) so I got to play with both sides.

That sounds pretty awesome. I would read that.

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