Is there a lot of competition?

cbenoi1 said:

If you are considering quitting your day job to become a writer, then that's the wrong question. A better question would be "what does it take to earn a living as a writer?"

The answer may shock you.

-cb

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Wow, that is a better question.

DeleyanLee said:

MickeyD's will do better for you, won't tear your ego to shreds (as fast) and might even get you health insurance.

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You've never actually worked at McDonalds, have you? The ego-shredding is actually pretty fast... and health insurance... Just sayin', you'd be better off collecting shopping carts at Walmart.

scarletpeaches said:

No; everyone here's rubbish.

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Why, thank you, Miss Scarlet. You say the sweetest things.

DystopianGypsy:
Just recently I've adopted writing as a hobby, and I'm considering pursuing a career in the writing profession.

Is there a lot of competition?

<SNIP>

I'm interested in fiction (ex: novels, short stories, etc.).

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The problem in answering this is that wanting to be a writer isn't like applying for any 'normal' job. It's not a case that there's only one position and you're going against a load of other people based on objective criteria (like qualifications or industry experience).

Being a writer means producing something that someone wants to buy, regardless of whether that's novel length fiction or a short story and while there are certain basic things that will help you to make something more sellable (e.g. punctuation, grammar and an understanding that writing does not mean scribbling in pink crayon), there are a host of other things that you have to get right - telling a good story, having a coherent plot, using characters who are believable.*

Some people say that being a writer is down to luck - having the right manuscript in the right place at the right time. Others reckon that it's a question of churn - put enough product out there and something will stick.

What is for certain is that writing is one of the least lucrative professions out there and one of the ones that demand a lot of hard work. I've spent 2 years working on my current manuscript and assuming I can sell it, I'm looking at a likely advance of £5,000 (about $7,000). That's a terrible return for the work and even worse when you consider that the advance gets split into thirds so I'll be waiting for another 2 years to get it all.

Keep writing as a hobby and stick with your main job while you start to trying to sell your work. Don't give up your day job until you're making at least as much from your writing as you are from your normal work.

MM


* Although saying that, there are writers out there who get published without accomplishing any of these things ... *cough*Dan Brown*cough*

I totally disagree with anyone who thinks writing isn't competitive. The word, for whatever reason, is often imbued with negative connotations. But let's be for real. This isn't pee-wee football in which the sole object is to go out and simply have fun. This is business. This is life.

Sure, we can support one another and even help one another, but the reality remains that agents only have room for so many clients, publishers have room for a limited number of slots on their list, readers have a cap on what they can spend on books. Perhaps it's not our own choosing, and in an ideal world we would all find success, but the real world is far from ideal. As the system currently stands, its structure is inherently competitive.

To think it's enough to write the best work we can is shortsighted. Our work has to be more than our best. It has to be better than what others are offering. We don't have to be nasty and backstabbing about it, but that's the nature of this business. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding himself.

sonya bateman said:

You've never actually worked at McDonalds, have you? The ego-shredding is actually pretty fast... and health insurance... Just sayin', you'd be better off collecting shopping carts at Walmart.

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Actually, yes, I have though I do admit it was a LONG time ago. My sister has been working for them for the last 25 years. I'm well aware of the experience involved and that it varies from place to place, just like any job.

That said, "MickeyD's" is a good representative of a menial job, which was the point of the post.

Momento Mori said:

What is for certain is that writing is one of the least lucrative professions out there and one of the ones that demand a lot of hard work. I've spent 2 years working on my current manuscript and assuming I can sell it, I'm looking at a likely advance of £5,000 (about $7,000). That's a terrible return for the work and even worse when you consider that the advance gets split into thirds so I'll be waiting for another 2 years to get it all.

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You forgot to take out the 15-20% off the top of each payment for your agent and whatever fees you agreed to pay. And any self-employed taxes, any social security requirements (for the US, at least), etc. that are required because it's earned income.

As I said, a menial job will pay better and be more reliable. Don't do this for the money.

Writing for personal satisfaction, sure, why not? You have nothing to lose and lots to gain.

Writing for profit? If you can pursue any other profession with equal or greater passion, do it. Writing is tremendously hard work with no guarantee of publication, paid or unpaid. However, if writing IS your passion, prepare yourself for a day job that doesn't sap all your energy and time. Then go for it.

Do not neglect the day job. Sinking below genteel poverty is not good for the writing spirit.

Kristin Nelson's year in statistics post: http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2009/12/year-in-statistics.html

A few of the numbers:

Kristin Nelson said:

6
number of new clients (Kristin & Sara combined)

38,000
estimated number of queries read and responded to (and yes, that is up from last year)

55
full manuscripts requested (down from last year)

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38,000 queries --> 55 full manuscript requests --> 6 clients.

Writing is not an easy way to make money, so you'd better enjoy doing it or you're going to be miserable.

DeadlyAccurate said:

Kristin Nelson's year in statistics post: http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2009/12/year-in-statistics.html

A few of the numbers:


38,000 queries --> 55 full manuscript requests --> 6 clients.

Writing is not an easy way to make money, so you'd better enjoy doing it or you're going to be miserable.

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Means very little.

How many of those subs were...well, not to put too fine a point on it...shite? How many were genres the agent does not represent?

It's often mentioned here that the slush pile is crud - and it is. I'd like to know the percentage of top notch queries this agent knocks back.

There is competition in writing.

However, it's not like a football game where I'm trying to stop you from publishing (scoring) so my team can publish. It doesn't work that way, not even in a limited-slot anthology. Because you're not directly competing against anyone . . . you're only competing against yourself.

Think of it like golf (or bowling, if you're so inclined).

You don't have your best day? You're going to get beat (not published).

You're on top of your game? You walk home with the green jacket (publishing contract).

Except unlike golf, you winning doesn't mean the guy golfing next to you can't win. If he's got a kick-ass story also, you both can take the jacket home.

The only person you have to really beat is yourself. Write better today than you did yesterday.

scarletpeaches said:

Means very little.

How many of those subs were...well, not to put too fine a point on it...shite? How many were genres the agent does not represent?

It's often mentioned here that the slush pile is crud - and it is. I'd like to know the percentage of top notch queries this agent knocks back.

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True, but even if you look at just the clients taken on from fulls requested (and the Nelson agency, as a policy, always requests a partial first, then a full,) the odds are still pretty low.

Not even 10%, since the six clients were divided between two agents.

So, no matter how you slice it, the it's a very competitive business.

Maybe most of those authors didn't carry the quality of a partial through to the end. Maybe the agents just didn't like the complete novel (well clearly, or they would have signed the authors).

I'm not being a Pollyanna here, but I don't think the sky is falling and I do think I have a chance.

Plus, my writing's fucking awesome, so I'll be all right.

jvc said:

and have no idea what the 'Randall Principal' is, then you'll never make it as a writer.

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Damn, I have no idea what the Randall Principal, or the Randall Principle, is. Does that mean I have to give back all the money I've made from writing fiction?

Yes, there's a LOT of competition in writing. But it isn't like the lottery. The only real competition are those writers who are better than you. Or who have more discipline and work harder than you do.

As a friend of mine crudely puts it, Shit sinks, but roses float. This means that if you lack talent and discipline, you'll sink, but if you have talent and discipline, you'll float right to the top.

Yes and no. Lots and lots of agents and editors have said in their blogs that between 90% and 99% of what comes in through their slush piles is unpublishable crud. So if you don't write unpublishable crud, you don't have a lot of relative competition. That being said, it isn't a fast process, going from completed novel to representation (if you choose that route) to signing a contract with a publisher. And yes, part of that slow process is having professionals read your work and compare it to the competition.

So, yes. Also, no.

Write the best book you can write, get the hell critiqued out of it, revise it a few times, and then you should be in pretty good shape.

Hedgetrimmer said:

I totally disagree with anyone who thinks writing isn't competitive. The word, for whatever reason, is often imbued with negative connotations. But let's be for real. This isn't pee-wee football in which the sole object is to go out and simply have fun. This is business. This is life.

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Hedgetrimmer is now my favorite poster on AW. I confess I do get a little annoyed with all the people who say, "Just write because you love to write! If you don't do that, you're doing it wrong."

I write because I want to have a career as a writer. Yes, I enjoy writing, but I want the world to see me as a badass. I want my stories to outlive me by at least a few generations. I want to make people think about the things I said. I want to come up with some cool turns of phrase that stick in readers' heads for years and years, the way other writers have done to me. I don't just do it because it's fun and fluffy and it makes me feel good. I do it because I want recognition for it. And I refuse to believe that it's wrong to see writing as a competitive business -- one that I can succeed in (wildly) if I am vigilant about building my chops and improving my game.

It's not pee-wee football. And I'm not here just to have fun. I'm here to kick ass and leave my mark on society.

And it is a business, and it is work, and it is life. If you view it as a fun hobby, that's fine for you. But there are people out there like me who see it as a serious business, and the idea of competition motivates people like me. It makes people like me work harder, write more, and take more risks. And often, people who work harder, write more, and take more risks are "luckier" with opportunities.

Hedgetrimmer, I am sending you awesome b.j. vibes right now.

Sure, we can support one another and even help one another, but the reality remains that agents only have room for so many clients, publishers have room for a limited number of slots on their list, readers have a cap on what they can spend on books. Perhaps it's not our own choosing, and in an ideal world we would all find success, but the real world is far from ideal. As the system currently stands, its structure is inherently competitive.

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Right.

To think it's enough to write the best work we can is shortsighted. Our work has to be more than our best. It has to be better than what others are offering. We don't have to be nasty and backstabbing about it, but that's the nature of this business. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding himself.

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Double right.

The good news is that I truly believe anybody who's developmentally normal can achieve success. With the proper attitude.

scarletpeaches said:

Plus, my writing's fucking awesome, so I'll be all right.

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Word.

But only because you've worked your ass off at it.

scarletpeaches said:

Means very little.

How many of those subs were...well, not to put too fine a point on it...shite? How many were genres the agent does not represent?

It's often mentioned here that the slush pile is crud - and it is. I'd like to know the percentage of top notch queries this agent knocks back.

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I actually had a longer post discussing how about 90% of those are likely bad, etc. etc. and how 37,000 of those aren't competition at all, but I decided it wasn't as relevant to the OP.

Libbie said:

And it is a business, and it is work, and it is life. If you view it as a fun hobby, that's fine for you. But there are people out there like me who see it as a serious business, and the idea of competition motivates people like me. It makes people like me work harder, write more, and take more risks. And often, people who work harder, write more, and take more risks are "luckier" with opportunities.

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No argument with any of this--however it's totally irresponsible to think that you're going to make enough to pay the bills straight out of the gate. Could it happen? Sure. Is it likely? No. If it were then it wouldn't be news when it did happen.

I received my first rejection letter in 1975. I'd been serious about writing prior to that date and set upon it as my career and held my money job as a "tide over" until I made it as a published writer. It's only been in the last few years that I've realized that doing it just for the career has gotten me nowhere, that I've done it all because there is something in me that needs to put words into writing and tell stories. I realized that if I've been doing this for 30 years without substantial financial compensation, it's not just about the money, fame and career. Maybe that's just ego-saving rationalization, but facts are facts. Attitude, desire and determination is great, but too often it doesn't gain you want you want.

I do see, and always have seen, getting published as a competition, albeit a friendly one. I speak from experience when I say that you need to do something that will feed, house and clothe you (and yours) while you're pursuing this career in writing, that it's not a guarantee no matter what your attitude or dedication. Telling people anything other than that is a great disservice and a grave misrepresentation of the facts.

If I did any job for 30 years with no great reward, I'd quit and find something that paid the bills.

DeleyanLee said:

No argument with any of this--however it's totally irresponsible to think that you're going to make enough to pay the bills straight out of the gate. Could it happen? Sure. Is it likely? No. If it were then it wouldn't be news when it did happen.

.

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I'm not thinking that. There is a reason why I'm currently working seven days a week at two vastly different jobs. Diversifying my options for day jobs.

scarletpeaches said:

If I did any job for 30 years with no great reward, I'd quit and find something that paid the bills.

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I've had jobs to pay the bills for 30 years. There's this nasty food addiction I haven't been able to shake yet that's demanded it.

I see this as a business in which the effort to excel can pay off. But even then, one could write a spotless manuscript that just doesn't catch the attention of a single agent or editor. So the necessity is to keep producing new projects, all with that drive for excellence. Good stories usually find a publishing home, and the only way to bend the odds in one's favor is to get a pipeline of projects going and to commit to constant improvement in storytelling, in the more mechanical aspects of the craft, and in developing one's personal creativity. Keep in mind there will be a significant number of writers who are doing this very same thing with the same quality control (even if they make up only a small percentage of the total number of people who query agents), and y'all may be going for a limited number of acceptances. That makes it competitive even though it may not be a traditional type of competition.

As I stated, I see it more as personal competition than group competition.

I mean, if I'm competing against all of you . . . why am I working with Writer Beware? Why does our friendly squirrel spend so much time in the "Share your Work" area helping with queries? Why do we even have this forum?

I mean, if I'm in competition with YOU (the collective you), then it would be in my self-interests to say "Screw you all" and let people get sucked into PA, and scam agents and submit horrible queries.

Just makes it easier for me . . . right?