Howard Dean: "Kill the Bill"

Shadow_Ferret said:

Why would that change if the government ran it?

I mean, I honestly don't know. I hear people complaining how things will change, but why would they have to if national healthcare is instituted. To me, and I admit I'm naive on these things and wonder why the world doesn't run according to Ferret, you'd simply be changing carriers from a private firm to the government.

And EVERYBODY would be covered.

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No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't want to be paying premiums for pseudo-insurance, at all. I'd prefer to pay costs up-front (costs that were reasonable, I mean) and carry actual insurance for unexpected expenses.

And you're right: this bill won't change a thing, except lead to greater costs down the road, along with higher taxes and higher premiums. Imo.

Medievalist said:

I don't see anyone but insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies benefiting.

I've been dealing a fair amount with social workers who work with the elderly of late; none of them, none of my mom's physicians, and my kin who are nurses and doctors, none find anything good at all in the current "reform bill."

My mom, ironically enough, spent twenty some years as a social worker for a county nursing home; and earlier, worked for Social Security.

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Well, with all due respect, Medievalist, I think maintaining the status quo because this bill isn't everything everyone wanted is flawed thinking.

Insofar as what Dr. Dean suggests, Senator Rockefeller says it's "nonsense" and "irresponsible."

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmem...ments-irresponsible-and-hes-wrong.php?ref=fpb

So you're in favor of passing a bill that does little to help the people it claims to help, is going to cost us an arm and a leg, and will only really benefit corporate monstrosities in the form of adding zeroes to their income state?

And you okay with that?

All this gets them is a little check in the box next to Pass health care reform (We won't even get into the care vs. insurance argument here.) and claim they did something.

Their plan sucks. Something is not always better than nothing, especially when the people it benefits are not the ones that need it.

robeiae said:

No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't want to be paying premiums for pseudo-insurance, at all. I'd prefer to pay costs up-front (costs that were reasonable, I mean) and carry actual insurance for unexpected expenses..

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You'd prefer to pay "reasonable" costs? Who wouldn't?

I just got a bill for lab work -- a blood draw, a1c level, and electrolyte levels. Cost? $458.00.

Insurance will pay most of it of course.


As far as i can see, Rob, you're against any form of government involvement in paying for health care. You want heath care costs to magically come down, so that a normal person could actually afford them.

But you have nothing to offer that would begin to achieve this. Tort reform? That would be great, but wouldn't impact the cost of health care in any significant way. I believe you also wanted to do away with HMOs, (which provide abominable care) but again would have no impact on costs.

I've given my take on how to deal with this problem. What's yours?

rugcat said:

Insurance will pay most of it of course.

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This is why it costs $458. Because insurance will be the one paying, not because it actually costs so much.

They both need immediate regulation.



AMC

rugcat said:

As far as i can see, Rob, you're against any form of government involvement in paying for health care.

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I've noted, time and again, that I'm fine with Medicaid/Medicare and other programs to help those that need help. The abuses should be addressed, of course.

You want heath care costs to magically come down, so that a normal person could actually afford them.

But you have nothing to offer that would begin to achieve this. Tort reform? That would be great, but wouldn't impact the cost of health care in any significant way. I believe you also wanted to do away with HMOs, (which provide abominable care) but again would have no impact on costs.

I've given my take on how to deal with this problem. What's yours?

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Oh, bullshit. You really want to start this dance with me, again? And you know I've given my "take." You just disagree with it. Why? Because I don't think everything can fixed with one all-encompassing plan, while you do.

tjwriter said:

This is why it costs $458. Because insurance will be the one paying, not because it actually costs so much.

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Yep. But there's nothing--apparently--that anyone can do about that.

robeiae said:

Yet, it's almost all about insurance, isn't it?

No.
Right.Wrong. Imo.

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No, we just call it insurance, or at least some do, probably just out of habit. I call it a health care plan. My presciption plan is a plan, not insurance.

Which is why we have Healthcare reform, not insurance reform (not that ins. couldn't stand it.)

I'd love to go back to the sunshine and lollipop days when we could pass the doc a couple of bucks and call it even. The machine is far too big for that now, so we gotta deal with what we got.

I'm all for insurance companies being about people not profit, but they ARE businesses. I get it. They gamble with people's lives, when in fact EVERY one will get sick at some point. It's not a very good gamble, but I know how it works - all the premiums for the young and well go to pay claims fo the older and sicker. Then the ins. cos. get to deny claims, thereby keeping more of the money. It's a scheme worthy of Bernie Madoff. It's business that profits from telling people they CAN'T.

So we take the business somewhere else. We don't NEED that system. We need lower costs, all the way around, and we need to get off the merry-go-round of Russian Roulette that Insurance Companies were founded on.

No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't want to be paying premiums for pseudo-insurance, at all. I'd prefer to pay costs up-front (costs that were reasonable, I mean) and carry actual insurance for unexpected expenses.

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While I agree with the basis of this - it's Major Medical - most people couldn't afford even the costs of wellness visits, unless those actual costs WERE $10. That's another problem - not that we're paying premiums and co-pays, but that so many who don't have care plans couldn't even afford a copay.

What's reasonable to you is crippling to another's daily economy.

tjwriter said:

This is why it costs $458. Because insurance will be the one paying, not because it actually costs so much.

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I just had a complete blood workup and urinalysis as part of my annual physical. Self-paid rate was $75.00. Sounds like the insurance companies are paying a bit much.

robeiae said:

*shrug*

As long as the problem is WRONGLY presented as a need for more health INSURANCE, nothing will get "fixed." And it is--to me--so fittingly ironic that in this respect, people seem steadfastedly determined to treat the symptoms and ignore the actual problems.

In the meantime, I took one of my children to the doctors's office today. Cost me twenty bucks, out of pocket. And that was--for all of my family, two adults and three children--the eighth trip this year. Given a choice, I'd just as soon pay fifty or more bucks a visit and get back the thousands I spend on health "insurance" for this amazing benefit (a twenty dollar co pay).

Que Sera, Sera.

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Exactly, Rob.

I currently have no health insurance. The COBRA ran out. (And just so you know, the COBRA was costing my family about $800 a month. Zoinks. We don't use that much health care on a regular basis.)

Today I had to go to my doc's office. The problem I was having was dealt with by a nurse pracitioner. She was even able to prescribe medication.

The cost for the office visit was $35.00. The cost of the medicine I needed, $4.00 at Wegman's. (A local grocery chain that has a big list of $4.00/$10-for-3-month generic meds, just like Walmart does.)

So, I paid for these myself. No need for the office staff to fill out forms. No need for them to wait for reimburcement from an insurance company.

I say we go back to this method (and the office let me pay the lower prices, not the jacked up ones they charge the insurance companies) and have insurance to cover the big stuff. The huge ,major medical stuff.

People are better consumers when they have to pay for it themselves. I specifically asked the nurse pracitioner about cost of the medication, if there was a generic, etc. before the Rx was written.

When it's "free" -- then who cares what it costs? Give it ALL to me, give the Cadillac version to me...cause I'm not directly paying for it.

Those of you who are for Obama's plan -- how about you all send me a check now so I can get some insurance coverage? Cause that's how it works -- the government will take from YOU (and from me, too.) and give to ME. So let's cut out the middleman -- just send your money directly to me. And you can trust me to use it for my medical care. No fraud. No waste. No administrative costs. 100% medical insurance/care for your "tax" dollars. <G>

Susan G.

Susan Gable said:

Today I had to go to my doc's office. The problem I was having was dealth with by a nurse pracitioner. She was even able to prescribe medication.

The cost for the office visit was $35.00. The cost of the medicine I needed, $4.00 at Wegman's. (A local grocery chain that has a big list of $4.00/$10-for-3-month generic meds, just like Walmart does.)

So, I paid for these myself. No need for the office staff to fill out forms. No need for them to wait for reimburcement from an insurance company.

I say we go back to this method (and the office let me pay the lower prices, not the jacked up ones they charge the insurance companies) and have insurance to cover the big stuff. The huge ,major medical stuff.

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The doctors and hospitals could save a ton in administrative costs by not having to do billing, rebilling when insurance denies it for the wrong code, calling and chasing down all sorts of little things.

Even with kids, we don't use near what we pay for insurance.

For my first pregnancy, my OB billed insurance $225 for every nonstress test he performed on me and he did them every week from 30 weeks on. It was his machine and that guy is the McDonald's of OB around here, so I know several patients were using that machine every day. There was no way, even with a staffing and profit markup, that the price of that particular procedure was reasonable.

Dean's an idiot for betraying his party and its hope to take a decent step toward the welfare of average Americans. . . for a change I might add. . . .

Fix Healthcare?

Step 1: Recognize that Americans spend more on Healthcare than any other 1st world nation in the world.

Step 2: Recognize that Americans get less in relation to amount spent than any other 1st world nation in the world.

Step 3: Ask why do we spend so much and get so little.

Step 4: Address the reason we found in Step 3.

Step 5: Celebrate!

And before anyone jumps in, it has very, very little to do with the cost of insurance.

Prozyan said:

Fix Healthcare?

Step 1: Recognize that Americans spend more on Healthcare than any other 1st world nation in the world.

Step 2: Recognize that Americans get less in relation to amount spent than any other 1st world nation in the world.

Step 3: Ask why do we spend so much and get so little.

Step 4: Address the reason we found in Step 3.

Step 5: Celebrate!

And before anyone jumps in, it has very, very little to do with the cost of insurance.

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Prozyan, we don't need the parasitic insurance companies, and yes, it does have to do with the insurance companies; it also has to do with absurd charges by the medical industry and the drug companies. . . . .

Bird of Prey said:

Dean's an idiot for betraying his party and its hope to take a decent step toward the welfare of average Americans. . . for a change I might add. . . .

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But it's NOT the welfare of average Americans. With Democrats like Joe Lieberman sinking any chance of healthcare reform, I was getting disgusted calling myself a Democrat. Dean's telling it like it is, as usual. Anything that was helpful in the bill has been removed. The man's a doctor, for God's sake, so I think he would know.

I was hardcore for Dean in 2004, canvassed for him in Iowa TWICE, and was there at the ballroom during the primaries the night the "scream" made headlines.

What could really have saved healthcare in our country was electing him, but you can thank big media for torpedoing that. By turning down the crowd volume and turning Dean's microphone up, everyone watching TV heard what those of us in the ballroom could barely hear over crowd noise-- a man trying to rev up his supporters over a loss, when they had worked their butts off for him.

I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. I finally moved to Canada to be able to be jobless and still have healthcare. So far, I have no complaints.

Hip-Hop-a-potamus said:

But it's NOT the welfare of average Americans. With Democrats like Joe Lieberman sinking any chance of healthcare reform, I was getting disgusted calling myself a Democrat. Dean's telling it like it is, as usual. Anything that was helpful in the bill has been removed. The man's a doctor, for God's sake, so I think he would know.

I was hardcore for Dean in 2004, canvassed for him in Iowa TWICE, and was there at the ballroom during the primaries the night the "scream" made headlines.

What could really have saved healthcare in our country was electing him, but you can thank big media for torpedoing that. By turning down the crowd volume and turning Dean's microphone up, everyone watching TV heard what those of us in the ballroom could barely hear over crowd noise-- a man trying to rev up his supporters over a loss, when they had worked their butts off for him.

I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. I finally moved to Canada to be able to be jobless and still have healthcare. So far, I have no complaints.

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Heh. . . You mean like you're not left to rot out on the streets?? Wow!! Must be nice. . . .

Bird of Prey said:

Heh. . . You mean like you're not left to rot out on the streets?? Wow!! Must be nice. . . .

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Yeah, I was lucky enough to marry a Canadian. Otherwise I'd be fucked just like everybody else right now.

I had a horrific respiratory infection my first week here and ended up in the ER. Right in the middle of the swine flu scare, so I had a longer wait than I might have normally, but I can't complain. I didn't pay a dime except for prescriptions.

Yeah. Government-run health care is so awful. Boogeyman! Boogeyman! The sky is falling!

Hip-Hop-a-potamus said:

I finally moved to Canada to be able to be jobless and still have healthcare.

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This is the very attitude that gets the Conservatives rankled. That they would have to pay for you because you don't want to work.

William Haskins said:

breaking:

obama will send rahm emanuel to kill your fucking dog if health care isn't passed.

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Joke's on him. My dog is Harry Reid.

Shadow_Ferret said:

This is the very attitude that gets the Conservatives rankled. That they would have to pay for you because you don't want to work.

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Yes, because layoffs never occur in this economy, and everyone knows that I must be a lazy sot who surely brought this joblessness on myself.

Unfortunately for me, I'm a lazy SOT who got laid off with MS, and the COBRA was killing us, as it was more than our rent.

Shadow_Ferret said:

This is the very attitude that gets the Conservatives rankled. That they would have to pay for you because you don't want to work.

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As a rational anarchist, I want to say that it's not only conservatives that get rankled at that attitude.

Hip-Hop-a-potamus said:

Yes, because layoffs never occur in this economy, and everyone knows that I must be a lazy sot who surely brought this joblessness on myself.

Unfortunately for me, I'm a lazy SOT who got laid off with MS, and the COBRA was killing us, as it was more than our rent.

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I wasn't talking about layoffs. I was talking about this:

Hip-Hop-a-potamus said:

I finally moved to Canada to be able to be jobless and still have healthcare. So far, I have no complaints.

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which makes it sound like you moved there so you could deliberately be without a job.

Hip-Hop-a-potamus said:

Yes, because layoffs never occur in this economy, and everyone knows that I must be a lazy sot who surely brought this joblessness on myself.

Unfortunately for me, I'm a lazy SOT who got laid off with MS, and the COBRA was killing us, as it was more than our rent.

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Yep, exactly like somebody I know. . . . He darn near went under because he had MS. Gee whiz, I sure would prefer my tax dollars to kill Iraqis than care for a fellow American that has MS. I mean, I'm so glad I'm a ruthless shit that's glad to run my fellow citizen into bankrupcy because I prefer blood on foreign soils. . . .

And in case you're still not sure, I think it's a disgrace that you are cared for in Canada when you're own country is so corrupt that it couldn't step up to the plate. . . .