You ever critique someone's work and they were offended?

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Mr Flibble

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How does she open the door when it was locked in the last chapter? Magic? huh?
Well this makes no sense, rewrite with something that actually fits.
Where's the dog? You mentioned a dog, have they lost it? Three chapters and no dog, where is the damn dog?

Or mine in capitals HOW THE F*** DID HE DO THAT HE ONLY HAS ONE HAND! Ahem

As the author, we know what we're trying to get across on the page. And it may read successfully to us. But we are not our target audience, and if the critter tells you something isn't working, don't blow it off. It's probably a very valid point.

Absolutely. If they are confused, it's because I'm not clear. Although the best is when a beta writes lol at something that was just a private little joke for me... and they got it too:D
 

sohalt

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Actually, it's not pretense. All too often, I can see that the writer does have a full-blown character in their head and the total lack of skill to put said character on the page for me to experience

No, of course it's not pretense to point out that a character is badly executed. And you are right, very often it is merely a matter of execution. I just think, that it might be a bit of a pretense to claim that it's always just the execution....

You see, when I tell you that your character is shallow and explain my impression by listing choices that your character makes that I perceive as symptoms of vacouousness, that might well be choices that you yourself would have made in the same scenario. The message I sent is definitely not personal - as a critic I of course operate on the assumption that there is no congruence between writer and characters - but the message you receive might well be.... The message sent and the message received are rarely completly identical, and sometimes that's neither the fault of the sender nor of the receiver, but just how communication works (=fails).

Still, it's important that critics continue bashing unengaging characters and it's of course important that writers don't let their hurt ego get into the way of self-improvement, so I think we agree on the main points.

All I wanted to do is raise some sympathy for offended writers - It's okay to feel what you feel. Just don't always act on it.
 

Jerry B. Flory

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I wish I could show you the forums but they're listed as N/A now.
I've done quite a few crits here and I've had some...less than pleased...posters.
It's all very typical. You know what happens. You give it your best shot; they react...negatively. You try to console them, point out the good parts of their work if there are any; you try to be encouraging, but they...resist your positive efforts. They get mad, you get mad, dpaterso makes the forum disappear.
It's routine, really.
 

Amarie

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LOL
I know this feeling!!! It happened to me more than once!

Are you comments as snarky as mine? I see where my editor-self has literally head-desked at some parts of the novel and left notes for my writer-self. Notes such as:
How does she open the door when it was locked in the last chapter? Magic? huh?
Well this makes no sense, rewrite with something that actually fits.
Where's the dog? You mentioned a dog, have they lost it? Three chapters and no dog, where is the damn dog?

What is it with dogs? I've had the same problem, until I got so sick of tracking the dog, I wanted to write him out.

If the vision in my head is different from the one in yours, the problem is more than likely (not always, but most often) in the writing I put on the page. If you're my target audience and you're not 'getting it', assuming you have two brain cells to rub together, you're working with the words I put in front of you...and those words are inadequate.

QFT-My editor kept telling me one character sounded whiny, which I couldn't understand, because I was trying to show the limits of his world, but I decided if it came across as whiny to her, it was going to come across as whiny to the reader, so I changed things.
 

Samantha's_Song

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Nita, I was complaining about this exact same thing on here last week, in one of my older postings, and why I've given up beta reading for good, except to a few regulars I'll always make time for. Some think that their words are golden, so I don't know why they bother to ask for beta readers in the first place.
 

emilycross

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Perhaps (and maybe there is already a sticky/guideline, if so ignore my stoopidity) there should be an emphasised Critiqu-etiquette?

I posted on my blog about this re Blog-etiquette and asked people what is the etiquette about posting comments. Basically if someone comments of your post you 1. thank them 2. comment on their blog.

Perhaps a very highlighted/emphasised sticky might help things? Like for example i've always thanked people via the thread they commented on but would it be better to rep them or pm them my thanks?

Maybe if a] negative responses to b] ignoring of critiques were explicitly shown as a 'no-no' it might help stop it happening so often?

hmmm. . . i know, like i said Stoopid idea.
 

Samantha's_Song

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Rereading Nita's posting, I was referring to beta readers - those of us who do a part.whole novel privately for someone. For the forums I would class it as doing a critique. I've had mostly good comeback from the bits I've done on here. For the ones who ignore me in any way: Reply to everyone else other than me, or don't bother to come back to reply to anyone at all, I make a mental note to never try and help them again and sometimes I'll even delete my posting. I deleted one of my replies the other week, and where it asks for the reason, I stated that I don't do ungrateful.
 

Jess Haines

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I was going to say something eloquent and snarky about liking to beta, except for those who don't respond / get argumentative, but a lot of you guys already said as much in prettier words than I would've used...
 

Rowan

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Rereading Nita's posting, I was referring to beta readers - those of us who do a part.whole novel privately for someone. For the forums I would class it as doing a critique. I've had mostly good comeback from the bits I've done on here. For the ones who ignore me in any way: Reply to everyone else other than me, or don't bother to come back to reply to anyone at all, I make a mental note to never try and help them again and sometimes I'll even delete my posting. I deleted one of my replies the other week, and where it asks for the reason, I stated that I don't do ungrateful.

I've just resigned from beta reading too... it's just not friggin' worth it. When you work full time, have a life and are also working on your own projects and people can't even bother to respond? WTF? I'm done. I've sacrificed way too much time to those who can't even acknowledge receipt of a critique and well-- )*#)*#)$*#)$*)#$**!%#)*$. I learned my lesson.

Best of luck to all the other willing beta readers. As for my beta experiences? I contacted people in the willing beta thread who couldn't be bothered to reply...... again, WTF? You volunteer to be a beta and yet you can't be bothered to decline my project? :rant:Sorry for the rant but I'm pissed off.................. (better than being pissed on I suppose). Time for some wine.
 

Samantha's_Song

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Maybe some people think that if we weren't beta reading, that we'd be sitting knitting squares for blamkets because we've nothing better to do. I always saw beta reading as trying to help someone get the very best out of their works, even if they didn't agree with all of the suggestions I made. Still, loads of time for my own writing now. :)
I've just resigned from beta reading too... it's just not friggin' worth it. When you work full time, have a life and are also working on your own projects and people can't even bother to respond? WTF? I'm done. I've sacrificed way too much time to those who can't even acknowledge receipt of a critique and well-- )*#)*#)$*#)$*)#$**!%#)*$. I learned my lesson.

Best of luck to all the other willing beta readers. As for my beta experiences? I contacted people in the willing beta thread who couldn't be bothered to reply...... again, WTF? You volunteer to be a beta and yet you can't be bothered to decline my project? :rant:Sorry for the rant but I'm pissed off.................. (better than being pissed on I suppose). Time for some wine.
 

StandJustSo

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"If the vision in my head is different from the one in yours, the problem is more than likely (not always, but most often) in the writing I put on the page. If you're my target audience and you're not 'getting it', assuming you have two brain cells to rub together, you're working with the words I put in front of you...and those words are inadequate."

I could not say it better than scarletpeaches has - she is, as usual, right on the money.
 

Libbie

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Unless your name's thethinker42. A writer less in possession of ego I have yet to meet, nor one who more deserves it.

Well, if you'd ever finish crits for me, you'd meet another one. ;) Just sayin'. :D There are more of us out there, although yes, I think people who GENUINELY want the harsh truth about their writing (so they can improve upon it) are very rare. Most of them do seem to want to have their egos stroked. Blech.

To answer the OP's question, I've done some chapter-here-and-there type crits for people who apparently really didn't want to work on their writing. They were expecting praise, and when I found things they could strengthen, they seemed dismayed and disheartened. They didn't go batshit on me, thank goodness, but they seemed a little wilted (and I'm not particularly harsh in my critiques, or at least I don't think I am.) That alone was enough to turn me off of critting for most people. I stick to a very small group of folks now -- people I know are really interested in improving their writing and who need and want the "here's what you can do better" along with the "wow, this is great!"

I'm reluctant now to extend my help outside of the small group of writers I know will actually appreciate it.
 

thethinker42

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(and I'm not particularly harsh in my critiques, or at least I don't think I am.) That alone was enough to turn me off of critting for most people. I stick to a very small group of folks now -- people I know are really interested in improving their writing and who need and want the "here's what you can do better" along with the "wow, this is great!"

Your crits are awesome. That's why I have you handcuffed in my basement to beta at my whim beta reading all the time.

I LIKE beta readers who are honest and upfront, rather than trying to stroke my ego. There's also the other extreme ("this is crap", "this is the worst thing I've ever read", etc) which is just unnecessary. I've had some nasty crits in the past, which is uncalled for.

Libbie and SP? The perfect beta readers.
 

Cassiopeia

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I have been asked to critique work from a published journalist, who is also a PHD and published a lot in his field of expertise. I was hesitant to accept their request and yet, he reassured me, after reading my work, he wanted me to.

I know he might take what I said personally, but I'm not going to be offended or upset if he is. That's a circle/cycle that just won't help either of us.
 

swvaughn

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What is it with dogs? I've had the same problem, until I got so sick of tracking the dog, I wanted to write him out.


There's definitely something about dogs. I actually did write a dog out, because I couldn't keep track of him.

Elusive beasties, dogs are. :D
 

cscarlet

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To the OP: Please (pretty please?) don't stop being a Beta because some people don't like criticism! I'm still learning, so I feel like I'm running around begging people to critique my work. I actually want it to be harsh (not unnecessarily mean of course, but "blunt" works very well for me). Because if it's not, I won't learn. I'm running out of friends and neighbor's kids to read my stuff, so I'm just crossing my fingers hoping someone over in the Beta forum will give me the time of day by the time I mull up the courage (and something I'm happy enough with) to ask.

So just remember: For every person out there who takes it personally, there's another person out there sitting on the opposite end of the spectrum, hoping you'll tear it to shreds!!! :)

As for how to respond to the "sensitive" types? I'm not sure. Perhaps you can do what I did for the few Beta projects I've worked on (for others), and just critique one chapter first, to see how they respond. If they like your comments, and you two feel comfortable together, then move on to critique the rest of the manuscript as a whole. So if the person freaks out, or doesn't agree with ANYTHING you've said, you don't waste your time pushing forward for the next several hundred pages.
 

Ruv Draba

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In software, the term 'beta' means that the software is out of 'alpha'. Beta means that the software has already been put through its paces before it was let out the door; there may be some bugs (some known, some unknown) but fundamentally the software does what was intended.

In literature it's much sloppier. 'Beta' can mean that the author:
  1. finished and revised a whole draft, believes that the characters, plot, setting, narration and through-lines are all viable, that the dialogue is reasonably well-crafted and now wants to see where the problems are;
  2. finished some part of a first draft, knows that there are design or exposition problems, has no idea how to resolve them and needs guidance; or
  3. wrote words on a page, has no idea how to approach the craft of writing and just wants someone to give encouragement and directions.
To my mind, only author 1) needs a beta-reader.

Author 2) needs a capable writing-buddy to peer over the shoulder, and help diagnose and fix problems, suggest alternative approaches, offer encouragement, point out strengths and weaknesses, and suggest exercises to beef up the muscles. Ideally that person would work with snippets, synopses and outlines, and not whole wads of manuscript. Ideally there's respect and trust between such buds.

Person 3) needs an experienced mentor -- someone to talk about what needs to be learned, suggest effective ways of learning it, and to dissuade them from writing 100,000-word novels and querying them to professional agents. :)

Naturally, if a person 2 or 3 thinks they're a person 1 then they're in for a rude shock. There are more or less polite ways to say 'Your manuscript is unpublishable and you need to learn more craft', but there are no ways of guaranteeing that someone won't hate us for saying it.

My suggestions:
  1. Don't commit to beta-reading manuscript until you're clear that beta-reading is what the author actually needs.
  2. If the author doesn't need beta-reading, tell him so clearly. Explain why constructively, and give examples.
  3. Authors generally write far more than they should. Don't waste your time reading material that has the same deep recurring flaws. Point it out once or twice, then stop and let them know where you stopped, and why.
  4. You can't stop authors from hating you, but you can minimise the effort it takes to get hated. :)
I turned my hand to fiction in a serious way just on four years ago. In that time I've critiqued hundreds of manuscripts, had a crack at four novels, half a dozen shorts (one now in publication), read half a dozen books on writing, posted maybe three thousand writing-related articles and completed maybe sixty writing exercises. In order of useful learnings, I'd rank them:
  1. Reading books on writing. Especially the first three or four good ones; after that it tends to be the same messages rehashed. I wish I'd read some good writing-books on day 1.
  2. Being a good writing-bud. It might take me a week to write a flawed short, but it only takes me an hour to critique one. I can learn some key lessons faster by reading other peoples' crappy manuscripts than by crapping out my own.
  3. Completing writing exercises. Exercises are very efficient at teaching us what we don't know because they're short and targeted and designed by people who know how to write. Because writing is experiential, doing exercises with buddies is far more useful than doing them alone.
  4. Writing shorts. About 80% of all the flaws we might have as a writer are visible in a short. Shorts are short, so the flaws come out faster. Hence better learnins.
  5. Writing about writing. I'm a mad problem-solving fiend. So helping other people with their problems is a form of learning for me too. We often teach what we most need to learn.
  6. Writing novels. They are certainly an acid test of being able to write, but I find them the least educational of all the writing activities I do. They're most prone to producing inconclusive and not very informative results.
I guess that for the purpose of this discussion I'm saying: don't give up critting other peoples' stuff, but don't try and beta-read it unless that's what it actually needs. And if you aspire to be a good writing-buddy, get yourself a good grounding in writing fundamentals first.

Hope that helps.
 
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Samantha's_Song

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That's why I always say I'm a beta reader - I won't consider reading something that the writer doesn't think is finished and worth beginning to query. Mind you, you'd be surprised at what someone thinks is worth querying and what I think needs another couple of drafts or so. ;)
  1. finished and revised a whole draft, believes that the characters, plot, setting, narration and through-lines are all viable, that the dialogue is reasonably well-crafted and now wants to see where the problems are;
 

Sevvy

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If a person's critique of your manuscript is "that sucked," then that's not a critique, that's a jackass. Disregard their comments, they aren't helpful.

Thankfully I've never experienced the angry writer deal when I've critiqued, but I think that's because I don't critique over the internet, but do a lot of in-person workshops. It's harder to be mean to someone's face, and that works both ways. Also, in workshops, the author is usually not allowed to speak during the critique unless it's to clarify a glaring mistake (typo on page 3, my bad!). Plus there's a moderator of some form to keep everyone civil and helpful.

I did receive a nasty critique in a workshop once, but that guy was a jerk to everyone, so I didn't take it personally. He also said that magazines and journals weren't worth being published in because he had never read one he liked. I have no idea where he's planning on publishing his own stuff then, but whatever.

Most people do just want a pat on the back. I have a hard enough time patting people I know in-person on the back, let alone someone over an internet forum I've never met. I do try to ask people ahead of time though, whether they want an honest critique, or if they just want me to tell them what I liked. At least then I know how in-depth I have to read their piece.
 
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