[Display site] Golgonooza / nooza.com

aruna · Jul 22, 2005

CaoPaux said:
Not yet, but I don't doubt he's betting that UK's greater acceptance of paid critiquing will allow him to reel them in by the boatload.

Hey!!! Just because there's a greter acceptance here doesn't mean we're fools! :box:

Why on earth would a British writer pay $2000 for an American "critique", when she can pay less than $700 (That seems the standard fee for a 100k ms critique here - I just checked a few) for a reputable British one! And they ARE reputable in Britain.

I just googled for a British based manuscript critique and only two came up on page one, both of which seem perfectly OK, with published author credits. I would say that the crieria for judging a good critique service is the same as for an agent: how many of their ex-clients are published, and with whom?

aruna · Jul 22, 2005

paladinb

I just got back froma bit of browsing and found a website, http://www.nooza.com/, which offers something entirely unusual. You send in your ms for a fee of £65 and they assess it for marketability; their readers are from all over the bookselling trade. If they think it has publication potential, they award it an medal of merit and submit it to 50 top UK agencies.

If you look in their forums theres a list of agencies, and many of them have shown an interest of working with this service. Might be of help to some people.

paladinb · Jul 22, 2005

aruna said:
paladinb

I just got back froma bit of browsing and found a website, http://www.nooza.com/, which offers something entirely unusual. You send in your ms for a fee of £65 and they assess it for marketability; their readers are from all over the bookselling trade. If they think it has publication potential, they award it an medal of merit and submit it to 50 top UK agencies.

If you look in their forums theres a list of agencies, and many of them have shown an interest of working with this service. Might be of help to some people.

Thanks for the info aruna,

But after my recent experiences are you sure these guys are legit?(£65 quid is a lot of cash).

Although I did see on their site that one of their testionm was from Peter Buckman of the Ampersand Agency, now I know that company were legit not only were they were listed in W&A yearbook but I sent them a submisson a few months ago.

aruna · Jul 22, 2005

Look down the list of agencies; a few of them have replied and one of them (Jane Judd) has even requested a manuscript from them.Most have not replied, but the fact of their being listed means, I gather, that they have at least shown an interest in working with them. I believe someone from Curtis Brown also asked for a ms.
Also, check out the sample reports they give.
It seems to me that they are legit, but I understand your fears. Might be a compromise between going it alone, and getting a full critique for the standard £300.

Roger J Carlson · Jul 22, 2005

aruna said:
paladinb

I just got back froma bit of browsing and found a website, http://www.nooza.com/, which offers something entirely unusual. You send in your ms for a fee of £65 and they assess it for marketability; their readers are from all over the bookselling trade. If they think it has publication potential, they award it an medal of merit and submit it to 50 top UK agencies.

If you look in their forums theres a list of agencies, and many of them have shown an interest of working with this service. Might be of help to some people.

Now you need an agent to get an agent. What next?

aruna · Jul 22, 2005

No, you don't need it. I'm not going to use this servcie.
But trying to get noticed these days does seem like the mad scramble of a million sperm to only one egg, and I don't blame anyone who tries to get a short cut; and I don't blame agents who are well tired with trashy submissions if they take advantage of a recommendation. I am sure there was a time when having an agent was so rare it was looked down upon; now they have become a first sorting house for publishers. With the enormous increase of submissions, most of them unusable, it seems only a matter of time before another sorting house even before the agent is in place. I say this not in approval or enthusiasm; simply as a matter of fact.
I personally would prefer it if wannabe authors, even before they submit to an agent, would accept a third opinion that their work is below standard. It would save everyone a lot of time and effort.

aka eraser · Jul 22, 2005

I can't speak about the specific site/service in question, but generally speaking, referral sites are as useless as author display sites.

If you don't trust your own judgement and want a critique of your ms you should join a good writing/critique group.

aruna · Jul 22, 2005

aka eraser said:
If you don't trust your own judgement and want a critique of your ms you should join a good writing/critique group.

You make it sound, above, as if it's something less than honourable not to trust one's own judgement! I actually think that it's almost impossible for a first time novelist to know how good/bad his/her own work is. First of all you;re madly in love with it, then you think it's the worst crap on earth. Remember, it's the first time you've done it; you are still floating in mid air, you're down in the dumps, you have never learned about structure, POV, etc.

I personally would not go to a critique group for my first ms, or advise anyone to do so. I would want a highly qualified, SINGLE editor to give me detailed feedback. What's a critique group but a bunch of people with varying degrees of experience in editing/writing, each giving their own subjective opinions. Some of them have jealousy issues, or are gushy with praise. No thanks. All that's actually poison for an insecure first time writer.

Now, with my fourth (actually fifth) novel finished, I've the first chapter up for critique by a group i trust; but that's a different matter. I now have several books under the belt and am far more experienced.

James D. Macdonald · Jul 22, 2005

Before you go to editors, think of beta readers.

But this is probably getting far afield for Bewares and the ST thread. Join me up in the Novels area?

aka eraser · Jul 22, 2005

You make it sound, above, as if it's something less than honourable not to trust one's own judgement!

Not sure how you gleaned that intent from what I said.

I actually think that it's almost impossible for a first time novelist to know how good/bad his/her own work is. First of all you;re madly in love with it, then you think it's the worst crap on earth. Remember, it's the first time you've done it; you are still floating in mid air, you're down in the dumps, you have never learned about structure, POV, etc.

Which is why I recommended getting feedback from a good writing/critique group.

I personally would not go to a critique group for my first ms, or advise anyone to do so. I would want a highly qualified, SINGLE editor to give me detailed feedback. What's a critique group but a bunch of people with varying degrees of experience in editing/writing, each giving their own subjective opinions. Some of them have jealousy issues, or are gushy with praise. No thanks. All that's actually poison for an insecure first time writer.

That's your opinion and perogative of course. Mine is that the opinion(s) of some trusted readers can be just as valid and valuable. Too many newbie writers these days are becoming convinced that 3rd party paid editing/critique services are a necessary step towards publication. It's exactly this view that Bobby and other sharks of his ilk are trying to promulgate.

It's simply not true.

victoriastrauss · Jul 22, 2005

aruna said:
I just got back froma bit of browsing and found a website, http://www.nooza.com/, which offers something entirely unusual. You send in your ms for a fee of £65 and they assess it for marketability; their readers are from all over the bookselling trade. If they think it has publication potential, they award it an medal of merit and submit it to 50 top UK agencies.

This is really a kind of glorified manuscript display site, similar to Authorlink in the USA, with the added detail of a supposedly expert "assesssment" (but since you don't know who's doing the assessing, you really have no way to judge their expertise).

I am always extremely suspicious of assessment services like these. I've been told by agents that they don't pay attention to them--for one thing, there's no guarantee that the people making the assessments are qualified to judge; for another, agents prefer to make their own assessment of a work. There may be exceptions; but I think it's fairly safe to say that most agents won't pay any more attention to a submission from a service like this than they would to an author submitting on her own behalf.

It's possible that an author might benefit on an individual level from buying an assessment here, but I don't think anyone should hand over their £65 in hopes it will get them closer to publication.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss · Jul 22, 2005

This discussion of editors and critique options seems to demand its own thread; hence, I'm splitting it off from the ST/Stylus thread.

- Victoria

Christine N. · Jul 22, 2005

This seems to be an ongoing debate. I say, to each his own, but...

LOL. I guess it's just that not many people have that kind of disposable cash. Personally, I used Critters for my own FIRST manuscript. This group is run by a respected author/teacher and is populated by many serious writer. I got TONS and tons of good, honest feedback. I only changed things if more than one (usually two or more) readers pointed something out. I used their complete novel program, got one dedicated reader from the group, and he helped me out even more. It was an absolute godsend, and didn't take forever and a day.

That manuscript is in the process of being published. So would I recommend sending a first time novelist through a reputable critique group? You betcha.
If you're looking to find out if your story is coherent and your characters interesting, betas will do the job. After all, youre writing for your readers, and readers know what they like. Most people who write understand about all that, especially if they've been at it for awhile, published or no.

brinkett · Jul 22, 2005

Christine N. said:
So would I recommend sending a first time novelist through a reputable critique group? You betcha.

When I was looking for beta readers, someone invited me to join a crit group. I had to turn it down because I don't have the time to critique other people's work. Between my day job and other obligations in my life, there isn't time. If I took on critting other people's work, I'd never be able to write.

Time is at an absolute premium in my life, but I have disposable cash, so if it comes down to a choice between time or paying for a service, I'll usually pay for a service. Right now, time is more valuable to me than money. Someone else with time and no cash would probably prefer a crit group. Really, there isn't a right or wrong answer. People do what works best for them depending on their circumstances.

Christine N. · Jul 22, 2005

Which is what I was saying. LOL. Actually, Critters is pretty easy to keep up with. You only need to maintain 75% I think, which is only one crit for three weeks out of every month. AND most people don't submit novels for critique, they sub short stories, which take probably about half an hour to read and another 15-20mins to crit.

I always also got the added benefit of learning by doing from crit groups. I could see where my own stuff lacked because I would see in in other's work. Made me a better writer, I think. But not everyone works the same.

aruna · Jul 22, 2005

aka eraser said:
That's your opinion and perogative of course. Mine is that the opinion(s) of some trusted readers can be just as valid and valuable. Too many newbie writers these days are becoming convinced that 3rd party paid editing/critique services are a necessary step towards publication. It's exactly this view that Bobby and other sharks of his ilk are trying to promulgate.

It's simply not true.

Yes; but do we all have trusted readers? With that amount of expertise? When I wrote my first novel I didn't know a single person in the writing business; neither another writer, not an editor, nor an agent. Nor did I have the savvy to look online (in fact, I didn't even have internet at the time). Quite a few first timers are in this position: they want help, but don't have anyone to help them.

I believe that for certain individuals, a professional critique is the very best step they could take. I know for me, it was. If I were starting off again it was what I would do: I would not take a writing course. I just love working with someone knowledgeable on my own manuscript, making it better

Granted, there seem to be some unscrupulous people doing it. But it's not fair, or objective, to say that nobody should ever do it - as if it is a dirty act, or something.

aruna · Jul 22, 2005

victoriastrauss said:
This is really a kind of glorified manuscript display site, similar to Authorlink in the USA, with the added detail of a supposedly expert "assesssment" (but since you don't know who's doing the assessing, you really have no way to judge their expertise).

.

- Victoria

Yes, that's my quibble with them as well. I'd take them more seriously if they'd name their readers, state their experience.

aka eraser · Jul 22, 2005

aruna said:
Granted, there seem to be some unscrupulous people doing it. But it's not fair, or objective, to say that nobody should ever do it - as if it is a dirty act, or something.

I didn't say that.

CaoPaux · Jan 16, 2008

Well, in 7/06 the founder of Golgonooza (nooza.com) commented that it wasn't the money-making venture he'd hoped. Although there's three books pubbed under the label "nooza publicity", there's no sign of 'nooza now.

[Display site] Golgonooza / nooza.com

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

paladinb

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

aka eraser

Fish Whisperer

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

aka eraser

Fish Whisperer

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

brinkett

Elder Scrolls devotee

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

aka eraser

Fish Whisperer

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless