Evil For Evil's Sake

JimmyB27 · Nov 12, 2009

Cyia said:
Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn ~ Michael Caine; The Dark Knight

kaitie said:
The person with the quote about the Joker is interesting. The quote sounds like he's just evil for the hell of it, but truth is he was one of the most complex villains I've ever seen. Actually, they did an awesome job with Harvey Dent, too. I wanna go watch Dark Knight again now haha.

I don't think that quote does suggest that he's evil just for the hell of it. It suggests that he doesn't expect to gain anything from his evil acts, but there's still a reason why he does them. We don't know what it is, but it's there. I would assume he's suffered some sort of trauma in his life - see those scars? They came from somewhere, right?

Damn, now I want to watch TDK again... :tongue

dirtsider · Nov 12, 2009

I can't recall if I saw it here or not but one thing that stuck with me regarding villians is (to paraphrase) that a villian may be a psycho nutjob but s/he is the hero of his/her own story. The villian's backstory or reasons for doing things may not be written into the story but the writer should know why the villians are doing the things they're doing.

willietheshakes · Nov 12, 2009

You can play with the whole notion of "evil for evil's sake" as well. In BIW, the "villain" is, at first (by all appearances) the very epitome of wholesale evil for evil's sake - textbook, in fact. By the end of the book, though, his motivations have been revealed. And yes, he IS the hero of his own story. More than that, though, he becomes a sympathetic, understandable character and not just an amorphous threat.

icerose · Nov 12, 2009

willietheshakes said:
You can play with the whole notion of "evil for evil's sake" as well. In BIW, the "villain" is, at first (by all appearances) the very epitome of wholesale evil for evil's sake - textbook, in fact. By the end of the book, though, his motivations have been revealed. And yes, he IS the hero of his own story. More than that, though, he becomes a sympathetic, understandable character and not just an amorphous threat.

I think it really depends on the villian and the story though. There are several examples in fiction where you don't feel one bit sorry for the villian. Sauron and Sauroman for example in LOTR. Make that all the bad guys for that matter. And it still works.

In Die Hard. You don't feel sorry when Hans falls out of the building and you certainly don't sympathize with him but he makes for an excellent bad guy.

Selah March · Nov 12, 2009

"Evil for the sake of evil" -- with no depth of motivation, no supporting back story, and no shades of gray -- makes, for me, a boring read.

"Good for the sake of good" -- "I'm the protagonist, and therefore the good guy and have no weaknesses except those that arise from being too good (overly trusting, generous to a fault)" -- is an equally boring read for me.

To me, these characters are especially odious in fantasy, where they're also especially prevalent. Give me some meat in your characterization, please. I've had enough milk to last a lifetime.

Cyia · Nov 12, 2009

The best villains - and I think the Joker is in this category - are the ones who are mirror images of the hero, just spun 180 degrees. That's practically the whole point of Dark Knight: Joker wants to push Batman past that one line he refuses to cross so there's no longer any difference between the two.

One of the best villain lines I ever heard/saw was:

I'm not a psychopath, I know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong... I just don't care.

Strange Days · Nov 12, 2009

Evil for Evil's sake? Hmmm... Anton Chigurh, for example. More like "evil for no sake at all", though. The man's just evil. Period. No backstory. No motives. No realization that he's evil. (At least in the movie)...

katiemac · Nov 12, 2009

The best villains - and I think the Joker is in this category - are the ones who are mirror images of the hero, just spun 180 degrees. That's practically the whole point of Dark Knight: Joker wants to push Batman past that one line he refuses to cross so there's no longer any difference between the two.

I agree. I like these matchups because it makes the hero the best person (or the only person) able to take down the villain ... if he even takes him down at all. If you have a villain, your hero can't just be okay at fighting him, he's got to fit. That doesn't mean your hero has to be a powerhouse; it very well may just come down to the fact he has the best motivation.

Phaeal · Nov 12, 2009

Cyia said:
I'm going to use Dexter as an example, because he's one of the biggest "good" villains out there - so good, he's the "hero" of his own show.

Dexter is a cold blooded killer. He murders people with a smile, and does so brutally, graphically, and with a big ewww factor. It's his life's work and he loves it.

Now, in most cases, a serial killer who has a family by day and dismembers by night would be reviled. The audience would be cheering on the police/CSI/BAU, whatever acronym the show relies on to find the guy and get him off the streets, but Dexter manages to be the "good guy". Why? Because he's killing the bad guys.

In real life, a man like that would still be hunted and put in jail/executed if he was caught, but in his world, he's doing the right thing. He's not murdering people, he's helping people by making society safe and killer-free.

He does evil things, but not for evil's sake.

Not to mention that Dexter is shown to have been so traumatized as a very young child that no one could blame him for having some odd twists in his brain. Also he's not actually a psychopath -- however much he tells himself he doesn't feel human emotion, his actions prove him wrong.

willietheshakes · Nov 12, 2009

icerose said:
I think it really depends on the villian and the story though. There are several examples in fiction where you don't feel one bit sorry for the villian. Sauron and Sauroman for example in LOTR. Make that all the bad guys for that matter. And it still works.

In Die Hard. You don't feel sorry when Hans falls out of the building and you certainly don't sympathize with him but he makes for an excellent bad guy.

You did notice the "can" in my post, right? Second word?

mamaesme · Nov 13, 2009

I, personally, love the sympathetic devil character. It just adds another layer to the character that I hate when their gone.

(So says the girl who is making Heaven the villains in her story.)

icerose · Nov 13, 2009

willietheshakes said:
You did notice the "can" in my post, right? Second word?

And I totally missed it. I really shouldn't post when I'm post sick either.

Celia Cyanide · Nov 13, 2009

kaitie said:
The person with the quote about the Joker is interesting. The quote sounds like he's just evil for the hell of it, but truth is he was one of the most complex villains I've ever seen. Actually, they did an awesome job with Harvey Dent, too. I wanna go watch Dark Knight again now haha.

Precisely. The Joker has a backstory. He just doesn't want you to know what it is.

I need to watch it again, too. LOL!

Evil For Evil's Sake

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

dirtsider

Not so new, really

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

icerose

Lost in School Work

Selah March

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Strange Days

who cares, anyway?..

katiemac

Five by Five

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

mamaesme

icerose

Lost in School Work

Celia Cyanide

Joker Groupie