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Sargentodiaz

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I need help.

I've "completed" five novels - done the edit, revision, rewrite, etc., to the point where I can't think of much else to do with them. I've written query letters and synopses - and have yet to receive even a request for a partial.

I know I'm not a "bad" writer as most people who read my stuff tell me it has merit.

So, what am I doing wrong? Perhaps members of this forum can tell me what's missing or what needs fixing? Or, simply that it's not fit to be published.

The five novels are:

Blood in the Meadows - a thriller of 86,000 words set in Las Vegas where a local cabbie stands between a Colombian drug boss and thousands of New Year's Eve revelers he seeks to slaughter in revenge for the loss of his son at the hands of local drug agents.

Follow the Raven - fantasy with a strong overtone of science fiction at 116,000 words in which gods watch as Eigan, a young human, sets out to fix a mess the fathers of those gods allowed to happen.

Sonora Symphony - a commercial novel of 110,000 words in which a wounded, modern Cherokee warrior meets a Papago elder who helps him regain his memory and face life - even in spite of learning his parents were murdered while he was serving in Afghanistan. [this is currently in limbo with editors who've not given me an update on its status in a couple of months.]

Tslagi Tales - the sequel to Sonora Symphony in which the warrior, now joined by a Cherokeee medicine woman, set out to find why his parents were murdered.

Waltzing in the Shadows - commercial/historical fiction of 168,000 words set in Vienna during the late 1970s and early 1980s in which the fate of nations sometimes hinge upon anonymous warriors, some of whom do not wear uniforms.

Each has a query and a synopsis and I can provide either a partial or complete manuscript for each.

I DO NOT need an editor! [At least I don't think so.] I just need someone(s) to tell me what I need to do to "fix them" - if that's possible.

Thanks in advance.
 

MGraybosch

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I DO NOT need an editor! [At least I don't think so.] I just need someone(s) to tell me what I need to do to "fix them" - if that's possible.

Isn't suggesting fixes part of what an editor does? Also, are you sure you're submitting to the right agents? Most agents are picky about what sort of material they'll consider; get the latest edition of Writers' Market for details.
 

firedrake

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You say you've had people read them. Have you had them beta-read, as opposed to being read by friends and/or relatives?

Have you posted any bits in SYW?
 

Williebee

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LVCabbie

I know you've been posting up stuff in SYW, and getting some pretty good feedback from it.

A serious beta reader would make sense. (When you find a good one, treasure them.)

Next question would be, how are you selecting who you are sending to? Have you hit PublishersMarketplace to find agents (who are selling) in your genre?

Good luck sir. Sonora Symphony sounds particularly interesting to me.
 

Linda Adams

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One of the things I learned was the writing itself doesn't matter as much as the story does. A book can have great writing but a story that doesn't work or doesn't stand out. Don't know if that's the case with yours, but thought it was worth thinking about.

Also, what makes the stories special? If the agent has 50 similar manuscripts sitting on her desk, what's going to make yours different? That's a really tough question to answer, and a lot of people don't know (which also means it's probably not in the story).
 

kuatolives

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Also, what makes the stories special? If the agent has 50 similar manuscripts sitting on her desk, what's going to make yours different?

Nah. If it's original than you'll have to beat people over the head with it. Publishers chase their own industry like an ice cream man chasing down his own ice cream truck.
 

katiemac

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The first thing I noticed were your word counts. Agents suggest new writers don't pitch anything over 100,000 words. Money is a factor, but word count restrictions exist for the same reason when you were in high school your teachers set a minimum/maximum page count for essays. They knew how much writing it took to explore the essay topic; same with agents--they know how much writing it takes to tell a compelling story.

Without a doubt I bet your last book is getting knocked based on the 168,000 word count alone. (That's the size of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince... and Rowling only got that word count because she was making the publisher millions of dollars.) Cut your novels down to less than 100,000 words and that might help your response rate.
 

Randman

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Isn't suggesting fixes part of what an editor does?

I agree with MGraybosch in that an editor will tell you wwhere the gaps are what is out of order and recommendations on how to fix whatever is broke.

The other point mentioned is the agent. Are you blasting to the wrong groups or are you selectively applying to those who may be interested and are you following their instructions to the T?

I have had 1 maybe, 1 not my cup of tea and 5 no thank yous. Several hundred more to solicit, but since I have 2 sections to go, I have a bit of time. Keep trying and good luck.:)
 

kaitie

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The first thing I noticed were your word counts. Agents suggest new writers don't pitch anything over 100,000 words. Money is a factor, but word count restrictions exist for the same reason when you were in high school your teachers set a minimum/maximum page count for essays. They knew how much writing it took to explore the essay topic; same with agents--they know how much writing it takes to tell a compelling story.

Without a doubt I bet your last book is getting knocked based on the 168,000 word count alone. (That's the size of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince... and Rowling only got that word count because she was making the publisher millions of dollars.) Cut your novels down to less than 100,000 words and that might help your response rate.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I do agree with the assessment that the word counts could be hindering and he should see if there isn't something there that can be changed. But I've been reading a lot about word counts (my story is far too long) and while I do think there is a consensus that most long novels are just too wordy, I disagree with the concept that a compelling story would have to be within a certain count. I think it's too subjective. I mean, to take the Harry Potter example, could you possibly think of where that would be changed? All of the subplots would have to be removed, characterization, much of the plot, in order to make it a "reasonable" length for a children's book. I'm not saying she'd have ever gotten picked up that way, just that I would certainly call it a compelling story. Some books just need to be longer.

From everything I've read it's less about story as it is about size and money. Publishers like smaller books and booksellers like to fit more on a shelf. Granted, I could be wrong here. You definitely have been doing this longer than I have.

Anyway, to the OP, I have to say it does seem odd not to have gotten a single partial request, and really the only excessively long story is the 168k one. The others fall within those relatively reasonable realms I see quoted everywhere (typically I'm seeing 100k or less is GOOD, under 120k is less good but probably won't get an automatic rejection).

If people have said your writing is good my guess is that the problem is the query letter itself. Have you had people critique those? It's possible that you've got a good compelling story but are just not presenting it well in the letter and that's why they're turning them down. I also agree with the "how many have you sent" question. Has anyone ever sent you a rejection that gave reasons why, or were they all form?
 

kaitie

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The first thing I noticed were your word counts. Agents suggest new writers don't pitch anything over 100,000 words. Money is a factor, but word count restrictions exist for the same reason when you were in high school your teachers set a minimum/maximum page count for essays. They knew how much writing it took to explore the essay topic; same with agents--they know how much writing it takes to tell a compelling story.

Without a doubt I bet your last book is getting knocked based on the 168,000 word count alone. (That's the size of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince... and Rowling only got that word count because she was making the publisher millions of dollars.) Cut your novels down to less than 100,000 words and that might help your response rate.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I do agree with the assessment that the word counts could be hindering and he should see if there isn't something there that can be changed. But I've been reading a lot about word counts (my story is far too long) and while I do think there is a consensus that most long novels are just too wordy, I disagree with the concept that a compelling story would have to be within a certain count. I think it's too subjective. I mean, to take the Harry Potter example, could you possibly think of where that would be changed? All of the subplots would have to be removed, characterization, much of the plot, in order to make it a "reasonable" length for a children's book. I'm not saying she'd have ever gotten picked up by an agent without having been published first, just that I would certainly call it a compelling story. Some books just need to be longer.

From everything I've read it's less about story as it is about size and money. Publishers like smaller books because they're cheaper and booksellers like to fit more on a shelf. Granted, I could be wrong here. You definitely have been doing this longer than I have.

Anyway, to the OP, I have to say it does seem odd not to have gotten a single partial request, and really the only excessively long story is the 168k one. The others fall within those relatively reasonable realms I see quoted everywhere (typically I'm seeing 100k or less is GOOD, under 120k is less good but probably won't get an automatic rejection).

If people have said your writing is good my guess is that the problem is the query letter itself. Have you had people critique those? It's possible that you've got a good compelling story but are just not presenting it well in the letter and that's why they're turning them down. I also agree with the "how many have you sent" question. Has anyone ever sent you a rejection that gave reasons why, or were they all form?
 

katiemac

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I'm not sure I agree with this. I do agree with the assessment that the word counts could be hindering and he should see if there isn't something there that can be changed. But I've been reading a lot about word counts (my story is far too long) and while I do think there is a consensus that most long novels are just too wordy, I disagree with the concept that a compelling story would have to be within a certain count. I think it's too subjective. I mean, to take the Harry Potter example, could you possibly think of where that would be changed? All of the subplots would have to be removed, characterization, much of the plot, in order to make it a "reasonable" length for a children's book. I'm not saying she'd have ever gotten picked up that way, just that I would certainly call it a compelling story. Some books just need to be longer.

My word choice your bolded probably wasn't that great, and I agree it wasn't all that clear. Obviously books longer than 100,000 do well, and are compelling. Usually these are books from established writers. (Because of the very large money factor.) The first Potter book was cut down, cut down and cut down because it was too long (finally pubbed at 76,000, and that was still considered too long.) Now look at the word counts she was able to get away with in her later books because she sold.

But the main idea I was striving for in my post was that if you hand an agent a synopsis or a query letter, they are so familiar with the construction of good stories that they can tell you how long they expect your novel might be based on what you've given them. If your query letter boasts a 100,000+ word count, but your plot only suggests enough meat for 50,000 words, well, that's not going to work. And yes, I think agents can recognize these things based off a 250-word blurb. They're not just looking at the hook, although sometimes a hook alone will generate interest, but they're also looking for follow through.

When agents reject query letters because of word count alone, the money factor will be part of it. They simply cannot sell books that long to publishers. But part of it, too, is that more often than not the query letters with enormous word counts also produce bad pages--whether it's wordiness or unnecessary scenes or bad construction. It's a sign of a newbie, whether unwarranted or not, so there's a prejudice against high word counts you have to overcome when pitching.

You have to justify what you write in a query letter no matter what, but if your word count is too high (or too low), then your letter better be the best thing the agent's seen all month.
 

ChaosTitan

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From everything I've read it's less about story as it is about size and money.

Actually, it's both.

There have been and always will be those great exceptions--debut novels that are 150/180/250,000 words long. But if you compare the word counts of every novel that has debuted this year, the vast majority of them are going to fall well within the accepted guidelines. Very few, especially outside of SF/F, will be above 120k.

If you have a compelling story, and you can sell the agent on your compelling story, they may not mind your 160k word count. They may ask you to trim it, of course, but it's possible that story will trump length. Again: exception.

Very few people will be an exception. And the odds will always lean more in your favor when you follow the suggested guidelines. I read once on an agent blog that if presented with two equally awesome manuscripts and only the chance to offer on one, with word counts of 100k or 160k, the agent will choose the shorter book.

You have to justify what you write in a query letter no matter what, but if your word count is too high (or too low), then your letter better be the best thing the agent's seen all month.

QFT.
 

kaitie

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My word choice your bolded probably wasn't that great, and I agree it wasn't all that clear. Obviously books longer than 100,000 do well, and are compelling. Usually these are books from established writers. (Because of the very large money factor.) The first Potter book was cut down, cut down and cut down because it was too long (finally pubbed at 76,000, and that was still considered too long.) Now look at the word counts she was able to get away with in her later books because she sold.

But the main idea I was striving for in my post was that if you hand an agent a synopsis or a query letter, they are so familiar with the construction of good stories that they can tell you how long they expect your novel might be based on what you've given them. If your query letter boasts a 100,000+ word count, but your plot only suggests enough meat for 50,000 words, well, that's not going to work. And yes, I think agents can recognize these things based off a 250-word blurb. They're not just looking at the hook, although sometimes a hook alone will generate interest, but they're also looking for follow through.

When agents reject query letters because of word count alone, the money factor will be part of it. They simply cannot sell books that long to publishers. But part of it, too, is that more often than not the query letters with enormous word counts also produce bad pages--whether it's wordiness or unnecessary scenes or bad construction. It's a sign of a newbie, whether unwarranted or not, so there's a prejudice against high word counts you have to overcome when pitching.

You have to justify what you write in a query letter no matter what, but if your word count is too high (or too low), then your letter better be the best thing the agent's seen all month.

That makes sense. I definitely agree with the last statement that the query letter had better be darn good in those cases.
 

JennW

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If you have received not a single request, my first thought is that your query letters are weak.
That's what I was thinking. Post your query letter in SYW (Query Letter Hell) and rework it. That may do the trick. The first letter I wrote on my own was horrendous and the folks in QLH helped me whip it into shape.:)
 

allenparker

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You have to justify what you write in a query letter no matter what, but if your word count is too high (or too low), then your letter better be the best thing the agent's seen all month.

I think you are dead on here. If you write a story that has only 35000 words, they need to be the perfect 35000 words. The query letter needs to reflect that the story took 35000 words to tell and not a word more.

If your story takes 135000 words to tell, they need to be the perfect 135000 words and no less words would tell the story completely.

Even then, the query needs to portray the sense of perfection in story length, as well as depth and range.

My guess is the query letter might need a tweaking. SYW has some excellent tweakers.
 

LuckyH

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I need help.

I've "completed" five novels - done the edit, revision, rewrite, etc., to the point where I can't think of much else to do with them. I've written query letters and synopses - and have yet to receive even a request for a partial.

I know I'm not a "bad" writer as most people who read my stuff tell me it has merit.

So, what am I doing wrong? Perhaps members of this forum can tell me what's missing or what needs fixing? Or, simply that it's not fit to be published.

The five novels are:

Blood in the Meadows - a thriller of 86,000 words set in Las Vegas where a local cabbie stands between a Colombian drug boss and thousands of New Year's Eve revelers he seeks to slaughter in revenge for the loss of his son at the hands of local drug agents.

Follow the Raven - fantasy with a strong overtone of science fiction at 116,000 words in which gods watch as Eigan, a young human, sets out to fix a mess the fathers of those gods allowed to happen.

Sonora Symphony - a commercial novel of 110,000 words in which a wounded, modern Cherokee warrior meets a Papago elder who helps him regain his memory and face life - even in spite of learning his parents were murdered while he was serving in Afghanistan. [this is currently in limbo with editors who've not given me an update on its status in a couple of months.]

Tslagi Tales - the sequel to Sonora Symphony in which the warrior, now joined by a Cherokeee medicine woman, set out to find why his parents were murdered.

Waltzing in the Shadows - commercial/historical fiction of 168,000 words set in Vienna during the late 1970s and early 1980s in which the fate of nations sometimes hinge upon anonymous warriors, some of whom do not wear uniforms.

Each has a query and a synopsis and I can provide either a partial or complete manuscript for each.

I DO NOT need an editor! [At least I don't think so.] I just need someone(s) to tell me what I need to do to "fix them" - if that's possible.

Thanks in advance.

I would suggest starting from scratch. You should rightly be proud of your achievements, but your attitude is plainly wrong, sorry, but that’s my opinion.

Pick your best one and submit it again, you know the procedure, but do not mention
having written anything else. ‘I’m a new author, this is a first submission of XXX’.

Failing that, write the new one, forget the failures.
 

Southpaw

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I haven't submitted anything myself, so this is just from what I’ve read on all those great literacy agent blogs. Query letters are everything, and writing them can be painstaking, especially because it is a different type of writing. Word count seems important, too. So, maybe try to query the lower book count first and post in the QLHlike suggested above.
 

job

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168,000 words. Well . . . It is possible the agent may take one look at that in a query letter and not bother to read further. Even 116K is a long book these days.

And you might maybe reposition the 1970 book from 'historical fiction' to thriller ... ?

Now ... these five books are between 500K and 600K total. How long did it take to write all that?

If you've produced that many words in significantly less than five years, you may possibly be rushing through the work. Not editing it enough. High word count can be a signal of insufficient editing.
Not saying that is the problem here. Just putting it out as a thought.

The 'I do not need an editor' is a bit of warning bell for me.
My editor is worth her weight in gold. She makes my books good.
 
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Wordwrestler

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If you have a compelling story, and you can sell the agent on your compelling story, they may not mind your 160k word count. They may ask you to trim it, of course, but it's possible that story will trump length. Again: exception.
QFT.

This happened to me. In retrospect, I think I would have gotten more requests for my ms if the word count had been lower. I consider it an act of God that my agent requested my novel with its high word count.

OP, I'm guessing that your comment about not needing an editor was your way of saying that the purpose of your post wasn't to seek editors-for-hire. I hope that's the case, and that you'll be open to editorial input should you find yourself in the enviable position to receive it.
 

Slushie

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I drive my car into a mechanic's garage then roll down the window and say, "It's broken, fix it please."

The mechanic gives me a blank look. "Okay. What's wrong with it?"

"I don't know," I say, "I put gas in, people tell me I'm a good driver, I've washed and waxed it again and again. I just want somebody tell me whether or not my car can make it to New York."

"Sorry kid. I can't really help you until I get some more information. Each car has their own set of problems; some are more common than others. I can't give you anything specific because you didn't give me enough detail. All I can say is good luck getting to New York."
 
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