Carina Press

brainstorm77 · Jun 1, 2010

It's all totally individual, depending on the situation. If I didn't work a 'day job' I could write five books a year. It wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, this is just derailing the thread.

I see your point and can understand where you are coming from.

veinglory · Jun 1, 2010

Saanen said:
That's interesting, and awesome for that particular writer, but I don't know very many people who can crank out 35 books in five years. I'm a fast writer, but if I manage one full-length book (meaning 75-125k) and one novella (under 75k) a year, I feel like I'm doing very well.

Ebooks are quite commonly only 20-40,000 words with a linear plot. If I was writing full time I could problably produce more than one per month fairly easily--and I am not a fast writer. I expect that would earn enough to live on.

Stlight · Jun 1, 2010

I was interested in the rights HQ wanted, just as general information, not as an e-book thing or as a print thing, but as a HQ thing. The other general knowledge I've picke dup about HQ is they aren't inclined to negociate. Maybe I'm misinformed about that.

I don't think it was a bad mini-discussion, nor do I see why wanting to know that means the author shouldn't consider submitting to Carina or HQ. I may not have the right line on this, but I thought it was better to submit to a publisher when you understood not only what they wanted, but how they run their business. Of course, I could be wrong about that.

Would any of this matter if I had a book to sub to HQ? Of course not, their guidelines are so specific that anything you wrote to submit to them would need to be to a large extent re-written to fit another publisher. Again, I maybe reading all the guidelines wrong.

brainstorm77 · Jun 1, 2010

Stlight said:
I don't think it was a bad mini-discussion, nor do I see why wanting to know that means the author shouldn't consider submitting to Carina or HQ. QUOTE]

I don't think anyone said that? I think the issue was, if you are inclined to see e pubs as second rate, then it's best to not go with them. I have no issue with e pubs and am currently subbing to them.
If you do have issue with the contract with HQ or anyone then don't sign. I don't think anyone here in this thread has an issue with anyone questioning any publishers contract.

nkkingston · Jun 2, 2010

The impression I get from various posts and blogs about Harlequin is that their terms aren't quite as draconian as they used to be (which is a little frightening!), but they've still got enough of the market cornered that most authors are willing to accept terms from them that they wouldn't elsewhere. As pointed out above, if you've written a Harlequin style novel, you're going to struggle to sell it anywhere else anyway.

It makes sense to me that this would carry over to Carina, though with a wider choice when it comes to epubs it may not always be in the author's best interests as it would be with Harlequin. You've got the Harlequin contract without the explicit Harlequin branding - will you get the Harlequin sales figures? I'm still annoyed they haven't put their name to it, tbh, though I am looking forward to reading some of the non-romance books. It would be great to see that side of the market grow a little more.

ChristineR · Jun 2, 2010

One hundred and seventy five thousand words a year works out to 700 words a day. That's not a lot for a full time writer. Remember, these are very straightforward books with linear plots and lots of sex scenes. Now many writers (including myself) find sex hard to write, but you can get a lot of words out of minimal thought in them.

Plus, nobody starts out writing tons a day. It takes practice, like everything else.

KathleenD · Jun 2, 2010

*whacks head into keyboard*

A sex scene is composed of words that need to go into a particular order to achieve a particular effect that strengthens characterization and moves the plot forward.

In other words, it is like every other scene in the book, and is no easier/harder to write than any other scene in the book. Even if you can write sex. The implication that one can get "a lot of words out of minimal thought" is tremendously insulting.

I don't claim to be writing Hamlet, here, but I didn't wake up this morning and think, "Oh, la, today I shall crap out 20K words of smut because it's so much easier and simpler than writing something else."

As Stephen King said when someone asked him why he wrote what he wrote, "What makes you think I have any choice?"

If you would like to discuss it further, please come on over to the Erotica forum.

scarletpeaches · Jun 2, 2010

ChristineR said:
One hundred and seventy five thousand words a year works out to 700 words a day. That's not a lot for a full time writer. Remember, these are very straightforward books with linear plots and lots of sex scenes. Now many writers (including myself) find sex hard to write, but you can get a lot of words out of minimal thought in them.

Plus, nobody starts out writing tons a day. It takes practice, like everything else.

Uh...WHUT? :Jaw:

PS: If they take minimal thought, what does it say that you still find them hard to write?

thethinker42 · Jun 2, 2010

KathleenD said:
A sex scene is composed of words that need to go into a particular order to achiever a particular effect that strengthens characterization and moves the plot forward.

In other words, it is like every other scene in the book, and is no easier/harder to write than any other scene in the book. Even if you can write sex. The implication that one can get "a lot of words out of minimal thought" is tremendously insulting.

scarletpeaches said:
Uh...WHUT?

PS: If they take minimal thought, what does it say that you still find them hard to write?

I'm with both of you.

Jersey Chick · Jun 2, 2010

**looks at second can of opened worms**

Please, for the love of dog, don't generalize in a way that is insulting to an entire genre of writers by doing the ol' "pfft... it's just a formulaic plot to fill in the spaces between mindless sex scenes."

I choose my words pretty carefully to avoid sex scenes being just another sex scene. Sometimes they are the hardest to write NOT because it's sex, but because it has to further the plot without just being added words.

I don't know about the Carina ebooks, but HQ's other lines aren't all linear plot with lots of sex scenes, either.

yeesh.

ChristineR · Jun 2, 2010

Sorry, but you guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying, and I'm not going to say anything more.

Darklite · Jun 2, 2010

ChristineR said:
Now many writers (including myself) find sex hard to write, but you can get a lot of words out of minimal thought in them.

Absolute bollocks. I'm a university student and I put about 100 times more thought into my sex scenes than I do in a 2000 word essay on Hamlet. I find sex incredibly difficult to write, and if I could toss out a 700 word sex scene every day I'd be pretty bloody pleased with myself.

And I'm getting tired of those posters around here who look down their noses at us e-pubbed erotica writers. I'm proud of what I write. And I put a lot of thought into my books, the sex scenes most of all.

scarletpeaches · Jun 2, 2010

ChristineR said:
Sorry, but you guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying, and I'm not going to say anything more.

Surely if we're misunderstanding, the best thing to do would be to explain what you meant so we don't misunderstand?

For the record I find sex scenes easy to write. Certain sexual acts are more difficult than others, but in the main? They're a hell of a lot of fun.

What's even more so is the build up.

kaitie · Jun 2, 2010

I just wanted to say I work my ass off and 700 words a day is tough for me sometimes. Some of us are slow. :/

Angela James · Jun 2, 2010

Re: what we want/don't want. If we didn't want non-romance books, we would say so (I'm very good at saying no

) I explained this to someone who sent me a response to a rejection last week, stating that I clearly must not be acquiring their genre since I didn't accept their book and the launch titles seem heavily weighted towards romance or romantic elements. That's simply not true.

The truth is, Carina Press is an imprint of Harlequin, so when we first announced our launch, our first and broadest reach was naturally to the existing Harlequin readers and authors interested in writing for Harlequin, since that's who was paying attention. This resulted in quite a bit of romance submissions, or submissions with romantic elements. It's only been in the past 2-3 months (keeping in mind that we've only been acquiring since November, so for about 7 months), as word has spread to authors of other genres more widely, that we've started to see a larger percentage of non-romance submissions. In the past few weeks, we've acquired a handful of non-romance titles (fantasy, sci-fi thriller, mystery, etc) and we will continue to acquire them as quality subs come in. I think you'll find, as time goes on and we move past launch titles, that we will focus on romance (and we've always been honest about that) because romance is a money-making business, but that we won't be focusing on erotic romance, though we are definitely interested in publishing it, and we'll have non-romance releases each month as well.

As for "what the editors are used to acquiring" the editors have a diverse background so they're used to acquiring genres across the board. The editors have worked for Baen, ROC, Berkley, Dorchester, Pocket, Penguin, Samhain, etc. When I hired editors, I was very careful to hire so I had several editors to cover each genre, at the minimum. But in reality, the editors all have very eclectic tastes and read across a variety of genres, and after my initial hiring, I actually had to seek out several more editors who wanted to acquire romance (ironically enough) because the first group of editors had more interest in the non-romance genres.

All that said, I have to stress again that we can only publish genres we get quality submissions in, so if the subs aren't there, we won't publish it. Not because we don't want to, but because we're not able to.

Last, I know there are some questions about the website. On June 7th, next Monday, the website will switch over to a commerce site and become more reader/sale focused. We'll be adding a Coming Soon page as well, and the blog and submission FAQs, which have been the main components of the site since launch and focused more on authors, will become the secondary components and the blog will become a mix of info for readers and authors (currently it's targeted towards readers during the Countdown to launch, but it will become a mix post-launch).

Hopefully that helped clear up some of the questions. If I missed any in skimming the thread, please let me know.

nkkingston · Jun 2, 2010

One hundred and seventy five thousand words a year works out to 700 words a day.

I could write 700 words a day, but I couldn't package all those little increments up and just submit them. That would be a horrible novel. I don't know about you, but it takes me about as long to edit a book as it does to write it, so that's a minimum of 1400 words a day. And that's assuming my beta readers have time to read and return ASAP, that there's not more than one major change, and that I don't feel the need to send it back out to the beta readers again after that change. I mean, ideally I'd be working on the next book while this was going on, but it's not easy to switch back and forth between writing one book and editing another.

(though I do appreciate you've included weekends and a two week holiday in that number!)

Put it another way. I can write 2000 words a day, often for weeks in a row before I burn out. The problem is they're not good words.

I'd be very surprised it anyone was hammering out 700 words a day and submitting them as is, though I'd be less so if people with more stamina than me were hitting 2k every day and giving themselves time to edit. They just happen to be the exception, not the rule.

Sorry, but you guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying, and I'm not going to say anything more.

As a writer, surely you're aware that the onus is on you, not us, to make sure you're understood. Even if unintentional, marking remarks like your about romance in a topic about a Harlequin-owned publisher? Did you really think that wouldn't get backs up?

scarletpeaches · Jun 2, 2010

nkkingston said:
I'd be very surprised it anyone was hammering out 700 words a day and submitting them as is

I'd be very surprised if anyone subbed their first drafts. Word count and speed is irrelevant.

nkkingston said:
...though I'd be less so if people with more stamina than me were hitting 2k every day and giving themselves time to edit.

Like I said, word count and speed have nothing to do with it. And me? I take days to edit a book. A fortnight at most. So I take far, far less time to edit than I do to write a book and I write fast.

nkkingston said:
They just happen to be the exception, not the rule.

Not in my experience. I know very few writers whose work I enjoy, who would get away with fewer than 700 words a day. Good writers who aim to build a readership have sure as hell got to keep their presence current or they'll be forgotten. 700 words a day is, what, a book every four or five months? That's easily doable.

veinglory · Jun 2, 2010

Personally see a little over-sensitivity here. It is my personal experience that ebooks are often shorter and often do have linear plots, and that sex scenes are easier to write because they are, um, fun. There is a difference between a person stating their experience and making an insulting generalisation. And when it comes to inferring a motive or insult the onus is on the reader to be sure they aren't leaping to conclusions.

Selah March · Jun 2, 2010

Saanen said:
That's interesting, and awesome for that particular writer, but I don't know very many people who can crank out 35 books in five years. I'm a fast writer, but if I manage one full-length book (meaning 75-125k) and one novella (under 75k) a year, I feel like I'm doing very well.

I think if you look at the backlists of the majority of successful* ebook authors, you'll find that most of them release between four and ten books (novellas and full-length) per year.

A high level productivity (while not sacrificing quality) is a skill like any other. It can be learned.

*successful = making a decent living, and no, I don't count myself in that number -- yet -- but only because I'm lazy and fickle and generally a slackerish loser

veinglory · Jun 2, 2010

And, realistically, epublishing tends to be a volume market if you want to make a living wage or anything close to it.

Selah March · Jun 2, 2010

veinglory said:
Personally see a little over-sensitivity here. It is my personal experience that ebooks are often shorter and often do have linear plots, and that sex scenes are easier to write because they are, um, fun. There is a difference between a person stating their experience and making an insulting generalisation. And when it comes to inferring a motive or insult the onus is on the reader to be sure they aren't leaping to conclusions.

Hmm. Yes, ebooks are often shorter, and often do have more linear plots.

Personally, the sex scenes are the hardest for me to write because I struggle so to keep them from sounding not only like every other sex scene I've ever written, but also to keep them from sounding like every other sex scene anybody else has ever written. I suspect I fail more than I succeed. And that struggle -- and constant second-guessing -- takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.

Also, I'm somewhat obsessed in making sure the sex scene earns its place in the story. I feel my earlier work had too much sex that didn't reveal character or move plot -- sex for sex's sake, in other words. I can barely read my earlier stuff for that reason. I wish I were less neurotic about it. I'd like writing sex to be fun again.

Having said that, I guess I have to credit the idea that some folks really can't write fast enough to make a living in ebook publishing. But I still suspect that most writers who've been doing it for a while can produce at least 700 quality words in a day.

And I apologize for helping to yank this thread so far afield. I'll bow out until I have something to say that's specific to Carina Press.

mscelina · Jun 2, 2010

I just wanted to throw in a comment here. I met Angela James at the RT convention, and not only was she extremely nice and very helpful in the workshops she participated in on panel, but she was personable and kind and everyone I spoke to about her had extremely positive things to say. There was a great deal of interest at RT in Carina Press (their publisher spotlight was right after ours) and I, for one, think that Carina would be a good direction for some writers to go in if the press meets their specific and personal goals. Angela was highly respected as an editor before she went to Carina, and her sterling reputation gave Carina a lot of credibility right from the get go.

I have a feeling that Angela would be more than willing to address any issues or questions about Carina Press should anyone wish to field them. Just my two cents' worth--take it for what it's worth.

Susan Gable · Jun 2, 2010

nkkingston said:
It makes sense to me that this would carry over to Carina, though with a wider choice when it comes to epubs it may not always be in the author's best interests as it would be with Harlequin. You've got the Harlequin contract without the explicit Harlequin branding - will you get the Harlequin sales figures? I'm still annoyed they haven't put their name to it, tbh, though I am looking forward to reading some of the non-romance books. It would be great to see that side of the market grow a little more.

Would you like some hard sales figures on how some Harlequin books sell in ebook form? Lemme just grab my most recent royalty statement.

Now, mind you, this isn't a book that's primary format is ebook. This is my series (Superromance) book from last year, A Kid to the Rescue. The book was an RT Top Pick, 4.5 stars. I had an ad in RT. It was nominated for Superromance of the Year by RT, and it's also now finaled in the Booksellers' Best Contest, and the National Readers' Choice Award. (That's just to give you some idea about the book.)

Internet English Electronic copies -- 102 copies.

I have no idea if that figure includes Kindle copies. I do know I sold one or two of those at least.

For what it's worth (not much <G>), there's some hard data for you.

Oh, and also hard data -- sales of physical copies are way down.

But we're still ahead of the average ebooks sales, I would guess. This book has sold - copies I've been paid for - is just over 30k. That's including Aus/NZ sales.

Soooooo...that's why authors hand over rights to HQ when it comes to print books. (And yeah, those sales figures are DOWN. Big time.) Only time (and some people willing to share data like this) will tell if it's worth handing over rights to Carina. Like any other newer venture, it has to prove itself.

Susan G.

brainstorm77 · Jun 2, 2010

Susan Gable said:
Would you like some hard sales figures on how some Harlequin books sell in ebook form? Lemme just grab my most recent royalty statement.

Now, mind you, this isn't a book that's primary format is ebook. This is my series (Superromance) book from last year, A Kid to the Rescue. The book was an RT Top Pick, 4.5 stars. I had an ad in RT. It was nominated for Superromance of the Year by RT, and it's also now finaled in the Booksellers' Best Contest, and the National Readers' Choice Award. (That's just to give you some idea about the book.)

Internet English Electronic copies -- 102 copies.

I have no idea if that figure includes Kindle copies. I do know I sold one or two of those at least.

For what it's worth (not much <G>), there's some hard data for you.

Oh, and also hard data -- sales of physical copies are way down. But we're still ahead of the average ebooks sales, I would guess. This book has sold - copies I've been paid for - is just over 30k. That's including Aus/NZ sales.

Soooooo...that's why authors hand over rights to HQ when it comes to print books. (And yeah, those sales figures are DOWN. Big time.) Only time (and some people willing to share data like this) will tell if it's worth handing over rights to Carina. Like any other newer venture, it has to prove itself.

Susan G.

It's a great book

Susan Gable · Jun 2, 2010

brainstorm77 said:
It's a great book

Thanks. (Your check is in the mail. <G>)

And if you liked it, then that hero's brother book is available on eHarlequin now (in print or ebook) and everywhere else next month. <G>

Susan G.

Carina Press

practical experience, FTW

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