- Joined
- Dec 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,527
- Reaction score
- 1,182
- Location
- Ottawa, Canada and Spring City, PA
- Website
- janetursel.com
Creating fantasy currency
- Thread starter Tanydwr
- Start date
Sarpedon
Banned
Fun fact: the reason that dimes and quarters have the notched edges was to make it easier to detect cunning criminals who attempted to clip them, back in the day when they were actually made of silver. Pennies and nickels were considered too cheap to be worth the trouble.
I imagine zinc is quite cheap, because most coins are mostly zinc these days. There's some talk about going back to making pennies out of steel again, as even zinc is getting expensive.
OOH! here's a link: http://www.metalprices.com/
apparently zinc is 96 cents a pound, or 6 cents an ounce. Tin is 6.74 dollars a pound, or 42 cents an ounce.
Keep in mind that the ratios of value between different metals is not constant historically. There was a time, for example, when aluminum was more valuable than gold.
I imagine zinc is quite cheap, because most coins are mostly zinc these days. There's some talk about going back to making pennies out of steel again, as even zinc is getting expensive.
OOH! here's a link: http://www.metalprices.com/
apparently zinc is 96 cents a pound, or 6 cents an ounce. Tin is 6.74 dollars a pound, or 42 cents an ounce.
Keep in mind that the ratios of value between different metals is not constant historically. There was a time, for example, when aluminum was more valuable than gold.
Last edited:
Thanks to everyone - I now have, roughly, a currency system that has some coherence. No doubt most of the metals are far too expensive, but since I doubt I'm ever going to have to go into the comparative costs of copper and tin to an ounce of silver, I think I'll be alright.
My coins are bronze, silver and gold, where gold is used only for really expensive items - like fine armour and warhorses and bejewelled items and exquisite silk, lace and velvet gowns with seed pearls and gold thread and crimson dye and whathaveyou - and storing away your wealth. They're big coins - one ounce in weight - too.
And yes, this is sad, but I actually weighed some coins. Semi-useless facts discovered? A British fifty-pence piece weighs almost exactly a quarter-ounce, while a pound coin weighs between a half-ounce and a quarter-ounce (my mum uses imperial weights for cooking and I was brought up on the same ones - at least when it comes to cooking - contrary to popular belief, the imperial weights and measurements are still used quite frequently in Britain - everything's in miles per hour because it would've been too expensive to change all the roadsigns to kmph and distances in km).
So anyway, I have three bronze coins, two silver coins and a gold coin. The smallest bronze coin is used for inexpensive stuff, like a loaf of bread, half a dozen eggs, or a couple of pints of ale. The next is the general day-to-day coin for buying food or paying for a night's meal and lodgings at an inn, while several can purchase a pair of boots and five will get you a stone of wrought iron to be worked. The next is for larger stuff - worth ten of the second coin - it works for clothes and such. Then two silver coins, one worth double the other, for expensive items, including rent, weapons and the expensive cloths and such of merchants and nobility. Basically:
Bronze coin 1
Bronze coin 2 = 2 BC1
Bronze coin 3 = 10 BC2, 20 BC1
Silver coin 1 = 10 BC3, 100 BC2
Silver coin 2 = 2 SC1
Gold = 80 SC2 (gold being equal to 20 ounces of silver, and Silver coin 2 being a quarter-ounce in weight)
The weights don't perfectly work out according to value - I think one might be worth more than its metal which makes it perfect for forgery - no system's perfect, and even I have limits to my pedantry. As long as the rest of the system works, I'll cope.
So far I haven't calculated anyone's wages, but that's not too important for the current novel and I now have reference lists to work off to create a reasonable comparison (an imperial penny during the medieval period is equal to the second bronze coin).
So, all I need to do now is name the damn things! And - as my dad pointed out because I getting him to tell me shillings to a pound and stuff because he *remembers* using all those old coins - then I have to create the nicknames (you know, a dollar being a buck, a pound sterling being a quid, a shilling being a bob). I'm thinking about something Welsh as the official names, and then references to, maybe, the symbol stamped on the back of the coin for nickname sources. And rather than the monarch's head, the coins simply hold a version of the royal symbol on the front, with the year of minting.
Any suggestions, let me know!
My coins are bronze, silver and gold, where gold is used only for really expensive items - like fine armour and warhorses and bejewelled items and exquisite silk, lace and velvet gowns with seed pearls and gold thread and crimson dye and whathaveyou - and storing away your wealth. They're big coins - one ounce in weight - too.
And yes, this is sad, but I actually weighed some coins. Semi-useless facts discovered? A British fifty-pence piece weighs almost exactly a quarter-ounce, while a pound coin weighs between a half-ounce and a quarter-ounce (my mum uses imperial weights for cooking and I was brought up on the same ones - at least when it comes to cooking - contrary to popular belief, the imperial weights and measurements are still used quite frequently in Britain - everything's in miles per hour because it would've been too expensive to change all the roadsigns to kmph and distances in km).
So anyway, I have three bronze coins, two silver coins and a gold coin. The smallest bronze coin is used for inexpensive stuff, like a loaf of bread, half a dozen eggs, or a couple of pints of ale. The next is the general day-to-day coin for buying food or paying for a night's meal and lodgings at an inn, while several can purchase a pair of boots and five will get you a stone of wrought iron to be worked. The next is for larger stuff - worth ten of the second coin - it works for clothes and such. Then two silver coins, one worth double the other, for expensive items, including rent, weapons and the expensive cloths and such of merchants and nobility. Basically:
Bronze coin 1
Bronze coin 2 = 2 BC1
Bronze coin 3 = 10 BC2, 20 BC1
Silver coin 1 = 10 BC3, 100 BC2
Silver coin 2 = 2 SC1
Gold = 80 SC2 (gold being equal to 20 ounces of silver, and Silver coin 2 being a quarter-ounce in weight)
The weights don't perfectly work out according to value - I think one might be worth more than its metal which makes it perfect for forgery - no system's perfect, and even I have limits to my pedantry. As long as the rest of the system works, I'll cope.
So far I haven't calculated anyone's wages, but that's not too important for the current novel and I now have reference lists to work off to create a reasonable comparison (an imperial penny during the medieval period is equal to the second bronze coin).
So, all I need to do now is name the damn things! And - as my dad pointed out because I getting him to tell me shillings to a pound and stuff because he *remembers* using all those old coins - then I have to create the nicknames (you know, a dollar being a buck, a pound sterling being a quid, a shilling being a bob). I'm thinking about something Welsh as the official names, and then references to, maybe, the symbol stamped on the back of the coin for nickname sources. And rather than the monarch's head, the coins simply hold a version of the royal symbol on the front, with the year of minting.
Any suggestions, let me know!
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2009
- Messages
- 725
- Reaction score
- 91
There isn't much functional difference between printing lots more paper bills during an economic crisis and debasing coins.
I'd name the first two a half penny and a penny. I'd name the last one a crown or a king. Since only kings would have a lot of them.
The large silver I would call a silver. And the other a half silver.
The third bronze I'd call something crafty, like a wage. Or a Sweat, day or something else and make that minimum/average/normal wage for a day.
Some coins are different values at the same weights just by the mint that made them. A mint that has a reputation for using the purest metals and then coating them in steel is going to produce an ugly coin that'll be worth a lot more than a mint that makes a pretty coin but debases its metals.
Since no medieval society is going to have just one mint then you'll have a lot of different types of the same coin floating around, and the reputation of mint that made them is going to have a lot of impact on their value.
Simplicity is best when dealing with money.
Oh and if you decide to explain it, a fight is always a good way to go about it.
"This is a pure half silver, its worth more than ten wages."
"But its still a half silver, so its only worth ten."
something like that. Have someone throw a punch. It always seems to make a debate about money more interesting.
Sarpedon
Banned
In most countries, the amount of paper currency is insignificant compared to the amount of money in bonds, properties, stocks, and abstract economic instruments. This is why everyone watches the prime interest rate, as that is the most powerful lever of inflation/deflation, not the mint.
And historically, coins had lots of names. the english pound coin was called a 'sovereign' or less formally 'quid'. Other coins were called 'groats' 'florins' 'tanners' and a whole variety of slang names. drachma, denarius, as, dinar, ecu, guilder, peso, and so forth. If you are going to go to such length as to figure out what these coins are worth, I'd give them evocative names too.
Oh, they'll have official and then evocative slang names, not to worry.
I like the idea about the different mints meaning the same coins might be worth more or less. Wouldn't put it past the Council to debase the currency to keep more money for themselves...
I like the idea of a coin called a wage. It would be around the right amount for a day's wages for a labourer or someone similar, so that might make a good slang name for it.
I'm considering using crown or sovereign for the gold coin, but it's already been used in the now-defunct British system, so I'm a little wary... And 'noble' has been used elsewhere, including Tamora Pierce's books! The alternative would be something like 'morien', since that's the name of the ruling family (each is titled 'ae Morien' which means 'of the Morien tribe' - the tribe that unified/conquered the rest of the tribes to form a single country). It's a Welsh name meaning 'of the sea', since the Moriens were a coastal tribe/chiefdom although they ended up plenty in-land too.
But I do like wage... Gives a whole extra meaning to the words 'a day's wages', doesn't it?
I like the idea about the different mints meaning the same coins might be worth more or less. Wouldn't put it past the Council to debase the currency to keep more money for themselves...
I like the idea of a coin called a wage. It would be around the right amount for a day's wages for a labourer or someone similar, so that might make a good slang name for it.
I'm considering using crown or sovereign for the gold coin, but it's already been used in the now-defunct British system, so I'm a little wary... And 'noble' has been used elsewhere, including Tamora Pierce's books! The alternative would be something like 'morien', since that's the name of the ruling family (each is titled 'ae Morien' which means 'of the Morien tribe' - the tribe that unified/conquered the rest of the tribes to form a single country). It's a Welsh name meaning 'of the sea', since the Moriens were a coastal tribe/chiefdom although they ended up plenty in-land too.
But I do like wage... Gives a whole extra meaning to the words 'a day's wages', doesn't it?
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2016
- Messages
- 76
- Reaction score
- 8
Resurrecting this thread...
I don't mind doing some research, but I have never wanted to be an economist!
I thought I'd just develop a basic idea of my fantasy world's money, but the more I thought the more daunting it became. What I research I can find on medieval England seems to leave me with more questions than answers. The main issue is really that I have no real sense of value in an medieval-type agrarian economy. If a flagon of ale in a tavern is 2 pennies, what would a typical labourer earn? To get a sense of that I need to know how long it takes to thresh a field of barley or shear a sheep or shoe a horse (and how much does the iron cost???) or how many fish a small boat could catch in a day... Yikes!
Of course I appreciate that mentioning money *can* be avoided. But that seems an unhelpful restraint, and likely to be the cause of bloopers along the line. Hero tosses a beggar a silver coin... Enough for a good meal or a year's wages???
I understand why some think it's unimportant. But it seems essential information that would be taken for granted in any novel set in modern times. Hero works in a burger joint. You the author know that there's no way he can live in a mansion, drive a Ferrari or simply decide to jump on a plane and fly across the world business class. And if you have him do that you'll need to explain his wealth. That's because you understand modern economics and values. I really don't see why you would not need to have a similar understanding of a historical or fantasy world.
Or am I really making a mountain out of a molehill?
I don't mind doing some research, but I have never wanted to be an economist!
I thought I'd just develop a basic idea of my fantasy world's money, but the more I thought the more daunting it became. What I research I can find on medieval England seems to leave me with more questions than answers. The main issue is really that I have no real sense of value in an medieval-type agrarian economy. If a flagon of ale in a tavern is 2 pennies, what would a typical labourer earn? To get a sense of that I need to know how long it takes to thresh a field of barley or shear a sheep or shoe a horse (and how much does the iron cost???) or how many fish a small boat could catch in a day... Yikes!
Of course I appreciate that mentioning money *can* be avoided. But that seems an unhelpful restraint, and likely to be the cause of bloopers along the line. Hero tosses a beggar a silver coin... Enough for a good meal or a year's wages???
I understand why some think it's unimportant. But it seems essential information that would be taken for granted in any novel set in modern times. Hero works in a burger joint. You the author know that there's no way he can live in a mansion, drive a Ferrari or simply decide to jump on a plane and fly across the world business class. And if you have him do that you'll need to explain his wealth. That's because you understand modern economics and values. I really don't see why you would not need to have a similar understanding of a historical or fantasy world.
Or am I really making a mountain out of a molehill?
If you have bimetallism (or, god forbid trimetallism), you run into the glorious mess that is Gresham's Law.
For example, let's say you have a "fantasy" currency of 1 Gold Coin = 10 Silver Coins. That works fine, so long as the market price of gold is ten times that of silver. Now suppose, however, that gold doubles in value relative to silver (perhaps a gold mine gets flooded or something). Your currency should now be 1 Gold Coin = 20 Silver Coins, but how quickly can your society adjust? If it's stuck at the original ratio, a Gold Coin is now undervalued. It's better for people to melt down their Gold Coins, sell the gold for Silver Coins, and swap the Silver Coins for Gold. Rinse and repeat - the Gold Coins start disappearing from circulation, and everyone uses Silver Coins instead (or, in summary, "Bad Money drives out Good").
With trimetallism, you get even more opportunity for dodgy melting of metal based off market prices.
For example, let's say you have a "fantasy" currency of 1 Gold Coin = 10 Silver Coins. That works fine, so long as the market price of gold is ten times that of silver. Now suppose, however, that gold doubles in value relative to silver (perhaps a gold mine gets flooded or something). Your currency should now be 1 Gold Coin = 20 Silver Coins, but how quickly can your society adjust? If it's stuck at the original ratio, a Gold Coin is now undervalued. It's better for people to melt down their Gold Coins, sell the gold for Silver Coins, and swap the Silver Coins for Gold. Rinse and repeat - the Gold Coins start disappearing from circulation, and everyone uses Silver Coins instead (or, in summary, "Bad Money drives out Good").
With trimetallism, you get even more opportunity for dodgy melting of metal based off market prices.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2016
- Messages
- 76
- Reaction score
- 8
Yeh, completely agree. I'd worked out that bimetallism is probably a *bad* idea.
Another thing to note: the medieval economy did not operate on a free market as we understand it. Prices and wages were fixed by tradition and convention (heaven help you if you were caught price gouging food during a famine). The Church played a role in enforcing this, though during the crisis of the Black Death, the English Parliament resorted to a legal wage/price freeze (how 1970s) on pre-plague levels.
Inflation was much lower than what we're used to today, to the point where it wasn't noticed until it actually started to bite (like during the tail-end of Elizabeth I's reign).
Inflation was much lower than what we're used to today, to the point where it wasn't noticed until it actually started to bite (like during the tail-end of Elizabeth I's reign).
I recently checked on how much money my MC had acquired by reforging/altering international banking transations and contracts via demonic interventions: 80 million Livres Tournois! In just six months! That is equal to the entire expenditure of the UK in 1796! Better get an alternative universe!
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,197
- Reaction score
- 327
- Location
- North Carolina
- Website
- www.ursulavernon.com
One of these days, in my copious spare time, I shall write a fantasy where everyone is paid in salt, like the Roman salary.
I think it depends on your story and what's important to your characters. In a drought, water would be a valuable commodity. I would keep it simple in the beginning of writing the story and or use the currency system which your most familiar as place holder then focus on the currency after the fifth revision or so you make of your story 
. That way, you will have a better idea of what is the most appropriate currency to use in your story. Like in my story, which is a far off futuristic, precious metals/minerals are easily fabricated so don't have any real value, and there is more or less an abundance of resources so creativity is a hot commodity.
. That way, you will have a better idea of what is the most appropriate currency to use in your story. Like in my story, which is a far off futuristic, precious metals/minerals are easily fabricated so don't have any real value, and there is more or less an abundance of resources so creativity is a hot commodity.