Creating fantasy currency

Vomaxx

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I would suggest ignoring the subject as much as possible. Not for nothing is economics called the dismal science. Few people read works of fiction because of their exciting depiction of rates of exchange or systems of coinage. The more detail you put in, the more will be required. Once you say a horse costs 10 Goldnickys and a pair of shoes 9 Silverthingies, you will be committed to figuring out the appropriate price of every blasted object in your universe. Avoid if at all possible. If not possible, be vague and slippery: few will blame you much because few will care much. (I speak from experience. I am writing about mercenaries and therefore cannot avoid money; it is a major pain.)
 
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MGraybosch

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I would suggest ignoring the subject as much as possible. Not for nothing is economics called the dismal science. Few people read works of fiction because of their exciting depiction of rates of exchange or systems of coinage.

If the audience wants detailed worldbuilding, then why not give them what they say they want? :evil

The more detail you put in, the more will be required.

This is true enough, but there's something else to consider: the fact that you bothered to work out all of the details does not obligate you to show all of the details in your story. Some details are necessary, and you'd better have at least worked those out. But the more you work out ahead of time for yourself, the more real your setting will feel to you.

If nothing else, it'll give your kids something to edit and publish after you've kicked the bucket. Just ask Christopher Tolkien. :)
 

Tanydwr

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Some very nice responses. I may well look up 'prices in medieval England' - if only to give myself some comparative prices. I mean, does half a pound of grain cost the same as half a pound of flour (probably not, since the flour comes from the grain, but you get the point)?

As MGraybosch says, I'd rather have the reference system there already in my notes than have to make it all up and get caught up in problematic aspects. Currency building will be a side-project for the story - I can fix all those problems in the 'second draft' (in inverted commas because I go over the thing to remind myself of stuff so many times that some sections would be on their twelfth draft).

As for clipping and such - what kind of country would it be without a criminal underworld? Definitely merchants would weigh large numbers of coins - and false coins could be created by covering cheaper metals with layers of expensive ones (Tamora Pierce has a whole coin-forgery ring going in her YA book 'Bloodhound' - and I refuse to stop reading her books just because I'm probably adult and not YA - she's too good a writer and world-builder). Besides, given how corrupt the Council is (caring for the country while the king was hidden away for 'protection' and supposedly carrying out his orders - he's now on the run - before I kill him off), a criminal underworld is to be expected. It's possible that some of the 'good guys' make undertake criminal activities even.

I might go with coins of differing weights, but most likely the coins' value will be based on metal, weight and size, so I'll have to work out roughly how that'll work. You know, a quarter-ounce of silver buys a pound of flour or whatever. Mum's old-fashioned weights'll come in useful for more than baking!
 

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In the middle ages, if you counterfeited coins, you could be BURNED AT THE STAKE!

One of the people Dante meets in hell had that happen to him.

PS, that's really expensive flour!
 

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Some very nice responses. I may well look up 'prices in medieval England' - if only to give myself some comparative prices. I mean, does half a pound of grain cost the same as half a pound of flour (probably not, since the flour comes from the grain, but you get the point)?

As for clipping and such - what kind of country would it be without a criminal underworld? Definitely merchants would weigh large numbers of coins - and false coins could be created by covering cheaper metals with layers of expensive ones

I might go with coins of differing weights, but most likely the coins' value will be based on metal, weight and size, so I'll have to work out roughly how that'll work. You know, a quarter-ounce of silver buys a pound of flour or whatever. Mum's old-fashioned weights'll come in useful for more than baking!

It's not just counterfeiters who clip. Governments also adulterated the amount of metal in their coins. (It's called debasing the coinage.) Instead of providing ten gold coins, for instance, a single ounce of gold could provide eleven or twelve to the local mint. The official amount of gold in the coin was .1 oz, while the actual amount was .08 oz. Since the notional value of the coins was higher than the value of the metal contained in them, they were literally "making money"...until merchants and alchemists caught on, the word spread, and those particular coins drifted down to a lower value.

Debased coinage and thousands of different denominations of coins (0.1 oz of silver, .5 oz of copper, etc.) encouraged a system called "money of account." Books were kept not in terms of the actual coinage on hand, but in terms of the market value of that coinage. The clerk or manciple would tally up all the coins coming in and going out and assess their value in pounds, shillings and pence (or livres, deniers, and sous in France; denario in Italy; etc.). The coins were goods, like pounds of sausage or kegs of beer - except a little less useful, and a little more portable. Buying things with medieval coins could almost be like bartering one good for another.

In terms of what was common and what was not, silver coins were the $20 bills of the time.
 
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Tanydwr

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In terms of what was common and what was not, silver coins were the $20 bills of the time.

Okay, now that is a really handy statistic!

I like the idea of the coins essentially being an alternative form of bartering/exchange - that would work really well for the story, especially when people can barter stories, news and work in exchange for stuff.

Sarpedon - I figured that was expensive flour, I just needed an example!
 

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HUMOR --- DO NOT TAKE (too) SERIOUSLY --- NO OFFENSE MEANT

You see what's going to happen already, don't you? Most readers won't care; but no matter how careful you are, some reputed savant will come along and complain that your knives are much too expensive compared to your horses, because the recently-discovered Codex Bruxillensis Veryoldus shows clearly that the rate of exchange (in late Medieval Burgundy) of cupro-nickel for electrum was not nearly what you say it was. And therefore your whole book is worthless. It is a losing battle.

How wise, how very wise, was the Master: in all of Tolkien the only mention of currency is those "twelve silver pennies" that bought Bill the pony and the "eighteen pence" in additional expenses. Everything else is in terms of kings' ransoms, the whole value of the Shire (for 1 mithril vest (size: small)), fabled mines, dwarven riches, and similar unquantifiable denominations. JRRT's sales do not seem to have suffered because the whole of Middle Earth seems to operate without a measurable economic system.
 
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Capital

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HUMOR --- DO NOT TAKE (too) SERIOUSLY --- NO OFFENSE MEANT

You see what's going to happen already, don't you? Most readers won't care; but no matter how careful you are, some reputed savant will come along and complain that your knives are much too expensive compared to your horses, because the recently-discovered Codex Bruxillensis Veryoldus shows clearly that the rate of exchange (in late Medieval Burgundy) of cupro-nickel for electrum was not nearly what you say it was. And therefore your whole book is worthless. It is a losing battle.

How wise, how very wise, was the Master: in all of Tolkien the only mention of currency is those "twelve silver pennies" that bought Bill the pony and the "eighteen pence" in additional expenses. Everything else is in terms of kings' ransoms, the whole value of the Shire (for 1 mithril vest (size: small)), fabled mines, dwarven riches, and similar unquantifiable denominations. JRRT's sales do not seem to have suffered because the whole of Middle Earth seems to operate without a measurable economic system.

While I agree, as mentioned above, authors do this for the sake of completing their world in every way imaginable, even if the fine details never actually will make it to the print. If you ask me, I'd rather spend the time on worldbuilding that I'm sure will make it to the print. How I judge what will and won't make it to the print is another question.
 
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That's a good point, but sometimes it can be hard to tell what will make it.


And sometimes, you need something under the surface connecting things. For one story I did, I had to do extensive world-building of things that wouldn't make it into print, because I needed them to underlie the things that would. Not that the surface is "in print" either, but I did put it in the book. ;)
 
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Tanydwr

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That's exactly that - I need these things 'off print' for my own ideas.

Found this link though: http://www.worldforge.org/dev/content/rules/circe/articles/coins

I'm actually thinking of avoiding actual coins in favour of weights of metal - so scales will be an important item for anyone who deals in money. I also found looking at price lists useful more in terms of comparative worth - even an average cow is worth something like four times the worth of a sheep. Also interesting to see how things were more expensive in London. All I have to do is tie some specific weights to specific items as average prices (obviously the quality of a pound of wheat grain will affect the price a little).

My only confirmed decision is that the metals used are gold, silver, copper and brass. Obviously, where necessary, other items can be used in exchange - people could exchange jewels. This makes things much easier on my travellers, since a couple of gold rings could keep them going for months (they start off king, prince and maiden - by the end of the journey, the king is dead, the prince is a king, and the maiden is maiden no longer - but she's married, so it's okay! ;)).

I've decided one ounce of gold is worth twenty ounces of silver (at present). Now I just need to work out how much copper or brass an ounce of silver would mean. Silver is the base currency, I think. Everything revolves around it, unless you're noble or an extremely wealthy merchant. Or a goldsmith, of course...
 

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Keep in mind that Roman and medieval mints were constantly tempted to debase their coinage by making coins out of alloys with a reduced percentage of gold or silver.

Another good resource on the development of currencies is Glyn Davies' book, A History of Money. The book also has an associated website with a lot of free content. See especially the essay on the origins of money and banking.
 

Capital

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That's a good point, but sometimes it can be hard to tell what will make it.

Of course, it's a judgment call. I just follow the intuition.
I also make the call based on how expansive my story currently is - e.g. does it deserve me developing this kind of detail. This may sound ungenerous, but I try and invest efforts depending on the scale of my goals.
 
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Of course, it's a judgment call. I just follow the intuition.
I also make the call based on how expansive my story currently is - e.g. does it deserve me developing this kind of detail. This may sound ungenerous, but I try and invest efforts depending on the scale of my goals.


yeah, as a personal preference, I'd rather have too much than too little. But I also conworld for fun, so I am biased.
 

MGraybosch

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Keep in mind that Roman and medieval mints were constantly tempted to debase their coinage by making coins out of alloys with a reduced percentage of gold or silver.

Governments have always been tempted to debase the currencies they issue, and even today fail to resist that temptation, which is why we still have inflation.
 
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Governments have always been tempted to debase the currencies they issue, and even today fail to resist that temptation, which is why we still have inflation.


Er... I think modern inflation is slightly more complicated than that, since money isn't really reliant on composition anymore.
 

Lhun

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I have a good answer for that - not a lot of lead. Copper's a better choice. :) Lead's used in stuff like pewter and rarely on its own.
Well, if it's intentional, nothing wrong with it. ;) Just mentioning that lead was widely used as metal where hardness wasn't relevant, since it's so easy to produce and work with.
I suspect a silver coin as my primary coin would be the best option, since gold would be reserved for truly valuable items.
Well, you should probably just decide how valuable gold and silver are in your world, and go from there. There's not even a reason for gold to be more valuable than silver. If there are werewolves, i'd suspect silver would definitely be more valuable. :D
Anyway, just decide on how valuable gold and silver are (also relative to each other) and then you can just pick what metal/metal content the most common coin should have, and create a few bigger and smaller ones.
Say, you could go with most common coin out of pure silver, since silver is relatively cheap, and it buys you something like a chicken. Then there's maybe one coin size smaller with a part of the silver content (1/10th or 1/12th or whatever) and maybe two coins that are more valuable with varying gold contents. (And not necessarily the same increase factor)
Then to add a little life, you could just make up a few additional names for coins from different countries, and just decide arbitrarily on a slightly different value and/or different metal content. As long as you just pick a start and consistently plot down from there, the start doesn't really matter.
As for servants, most aristocrats already housed and fed their servants so they could use that as an excuse to pay them less.
Well, there's really no excuse needed in feudal society. Human labour is dirt cheap, and commoners and aristocrats are not the same. That's the way it is, and pretty much everyone accepts that. Servants already have a much better life than peasants or serfs. Well, mostly. Unless they worked for the Bathorys for example.
Songs and news are also worth money - this works in Crisiant's favour since she's from our world and therefore has songs and stories no one has ever heard before. A bard would be willing to pay the most for these, to extend his repertoire, but I imagine some villages would too, right? Or give a night's bed and board in exchange for new songs?
Keep in mind that intellectual property is a completely modern concept. Bards would mostly work for whatever money the audience was willing to pay them, or some innkeeper who thought they'd attract more customers. Selling a story might work, but not on the basis that anyone would accept that the author has some kind of exclusive right. So, any bard who already heard the story wouldn't dream of paying for it. He might be courteous enough not to also use it in the same city.
Or would it be easier if I just had the prince or king have a few expensive pieces of jewellery that they sell when they pass through big cities and therefore give themselves plenty of money, while additional work is taken more for insurance than necessity? I prefer them struggling, but it would certainly work, and Crisiant (female protagonist) is definitely practical enough to suggest it...
Keep in mind that people wouldn't buy anything they couldn't resell. So, if you want to sell valuable items, that'll only work in a city that's big enough that the merchant buying them can except to find someone to resell them to. Jewellery fit for royalty would need some seriously rich merchants, aristocrats or other royalty as potential customers. Or would fetch a very low price since a goldsmith intends to melt it down and use in other pieces.
The coins were goods, like pounds of sausage or kegs of beer - except a little less useful, and a little more portable. Buying things with medieval coins could almost be like bartering one good for another.
This.
Especially interesting when featuring a bank or a money exchanger or something similar. People who made a business out of exchanging currencies were pretty much buying and selling coins of different types, not so much exchanging, since there's no such thing a set exchange course. Even coins from different times of the same (usually small) kingdom might have a different value, since changing the currency or just debasing it did not mean all the old coins went out of circulation.
Similarly as there's no set course for money changers, local merchants of a given city would most likely accept many different currencies, but wouldn't offer the same price in all. I.e. it might (or might not) be useful to exchange foreign currency into the local one before making purchases. Bigger trade houses did also profit from transaction like these, since they were able to transport currency and use it where they'd get the best value for it.
This applies mostly to currency that's not pure noble metal though. Coins made out of pure gold for example would be worth pretty much the same everywhere since their commodity value is easier accessible than that of alloyed coins. I.e. getting the gold out of a 10% gold coin to use some different way, because the nominal value of the coin is below the gold's value is quite difficult. While a pure gold coin can be used immediately by any goldsmith, preventing differences in commodity value and nominal value more effectively. Though in european history, pure gold coins were far to valuable to be used by smaller merchants or craftsmen anyway.
Though i just love the example of south america (before the spaniards came). They used cocoa beans as currency, and gold as wallpapers.
And what if your Fantasy novel doesn't have the default medieval technology? None of mine do.
Electro-chemistry is definitely in the realm of steampunk.
Besides, when everything in your world is original and different than everywhere else, what's the point of asking other people for input? You'll have to make it up on your own.
 

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Lhun, that post was brilliant.

Now, does anyone have *any* idea of the comparative worth of copper, bronze and brass and their value compared to silver? Even vague ideas would be useful. At present, one ounce of gold is worth twenty ounces of silver - which makes silver relatively valuable. Is pure copper worth more or less than brass?

I may still change to actual coins with varying silver/gold/copper etc. contents - purely on a basis of how well that stuff lasts.

Oh, and the intellectual property stuff wasn't the issue - I knew that, considering how much Shakespeare pinched from contemporaries and earlier writers (Robert Greene *really* didn't like him). Crisiant's wealth there is the fact that no one has heard said songs or stories. Of course, her internal monologue gets to feel slightly guilty over plaigiarism and 'sort of' plaigiarism, but since she isn't claiming them as her own and she needs the money/bed/board/food, she doesn't mind too much.

I'm giving up on it for tonight. Making at least one decision is enough, and while I've found loads of fascinating *other* information, none of it is what I want.
 
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Lhun, that post was brilliant.

Now, does anyone have *any* idea of the comparative worth of copper, bronze and brass and their value compared to silver? Even vague ideas would be useful. At present, one ounce of gold is worth twenty ounces of silver - which makes silver relatively valuable. Is pure copper worth more or less than brass?

I may still change to actual coins with varying silver/gold/copper etc. contents - purely on a basis of how well that stuff lasts.

Oh, and the intellectual property stuff wasn't the issue - I knew that, considering how much Shakespeare pinched from contemporaries and earlier writers (Robert Greene *really* didn't like him). Crisiant's wealth there is the fact that no one has heard said songs or stories. Of course, her internal monologue gets to feel slightly guilty over plaigiarism and 'sort of' plaigiarism, but since she isn't claiming them as her own and she needs the money/bed/board/food, she doesn't mind too much.

I'm giving up on it for tonight. Making at least one decision is enough, and while I've found loads of fascinating *other* information, none of it is what I want.


Well, what are you using brass for? And how easily available is zinc?
 

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Wouldn't the coins be of a standard weight (or as close to standard as practicable given available technology)? If so, then the easiest way to debase the currency would be to file 'em a bit after they've been minted, or alloy the precious metal with a base metal.
Historically, I don't think that was much of a problem. What would be the point of filing the coins anyway, unless you're collecting the filings? It would take a lot of coins to get enough filings to make it worth the effort. There often were central mints, so the face value still meant something. Governments have been producing standard coins for many centuries, so I don't think this has been much of a deterrent in practical terms.
 

Nivarion

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In addition, with the weight-value thing, I'd still have to work out how many, say, silver pieces a cow was worth. As for change - the brass/nickel/cheapest coin would be a basic change coin, as well as paying for the staples in life like bread or eggs.

Hey, how much do you think an ale would cost?
That really depends on how hard it is to get or grow where the transaction is taking place. A coke in my local town doesn't ever get much over a dollar. However, while traveling I've found places in the US where they hang out around 2 dollars. The reason being is that that they're further from the factories, its a hard place to ship to or there is just more demand.

No, the OP.

All I mean is you don't have to have everything down to the minutest detail if it isn't vital. Method of payment isn't normally vital to the story ( and from the sounds of the work in question, it's not at all vital - all you need to show is that services have been paid for)

In most cases I agree. In 90% of cases you wont need to know how much the money is worth. Now say your traveling character has gotten to somewhere and is having a fit over how much everything cost. Or if they're a merchant who's job it is to pay attention to that stuff.

So far, in multiple (failed) drafts of multiple books, I've only found need to mention the currency once. Or was it twice.

So yeah, ask yourself if you really need it.

Oh, and as I understand it pewter doesn't have any lead in it. Its tin and copper. Not to be confused with bronze, which is copper and tin.
 
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Oh, and as I understand it pewter doesn't have any lead in it. Its tin and copper. Not to be confused with bronze, which is copper and tin.


haha. "pewter" is actually a family of alloys, about 90% tin on average, with copper and antinomy making it harder, but the cheaper stuff once had lead.

Now we use bismuth, copper, and antimony, as we have since learned that lead is bad for us. :)

But before the 20th century, pewter items might contain as much as 15% lead if they were not for ingestibles.

Knowledge moves ever on.
 

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It's occurred to me that with copper being used for so much, while it's a valuable metal, it's probably worth peanuts in comparison to gold or silver. Still, not a lot would be needed if you're buying, say, an ale at the end of the day, or a couple of loaves of bread.

Yep, this pewter still has lead in, particularly for jewellery. Not a lot of lead, since it's not a readily available metal in the country - I suspect there's more lead further east and south, but they've got so much copper, they don't need it.

I'm now trying to decide where to locate my slate quarries. *grins* But that's just a matter of deciding on the mountain range. Then I can decide who they export it to.

And for anyone who doesn't understand my pedantry when it comes to world-building, hear this:

1) I have three maps of the country. One is 'as it is now', one is 'as it was at the time of the Unification of the Tribes' (700 years earlier), and one is 'tribal territories', although technically, the tribes are probably chiefdoms.

2) Said maps contain a minimum of four other countries. One shows all the other countries at the time of Unification, and I've had to name between ten and fifteen other countries! Some even have languages, names, and imports/exports noted down.

3) Once my co-writer stuck all the info into an 'encyclopaedia' and I stratified it, it's still over 40 pages. Admittedly, some stuff is lists, so it takes up loads of room that way, but still - lots.

Liosse de Velishaf (brilliant name, btw), from my - admittedly rudimentary - research, zinc wasn't found on its own until the ninteenth century. It was a byproduct of other stuff, but easily used, since brass has been used for millennia. Brass is probably used mostly for decoration and practical stuff like buckles, plates, jugs, coal-scuttles, fire-tools (poker, etc.), that sort of thing. Which only leads to one question - is brass more valuable (generally) than bronze? The copper isn't the issue here, but the tin/zinc worth might be. What else is tin used in? I've only seen bronze - post-Bronze Age - used in stuff like medals and decoration, but any other hints would be good.
 
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Well, tin seems to mostly go with bronze and pewter, although it was used on it's own for a few applications.

As an ingredient in bronze, it was certainly very valuable for as long as bronze was used, and the Romans conquered Britain at least partially because of the tin there.

I'm afraid the value of tin compared to zinc is not really my area. Since zinc seems to have been used primarily for decoration such as in Roman weapons, I would think tin would be slightly more valuable and much more well known.
 

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Historically, I don't think that was much of a problem. What would be the point of filing the coins anyway, unless you're collecting the filings? It would take a lot of coins to get enough filings to make it worth the effort. There often were central mints, so the face value still meant something. Governments have been producing standard coins for many centuries, so I don't think this has been much of a deterrent in practical terms.

If we're talking about ancient and medieval history, it happened fairly often. Often enough for there to be laws against it. As a result, the value of coins usually depended on their weight rather than their face value. That's why moneylenders and money-changers were so often depicted holding scales.