PW Best-Books Lists Snub Women Writers

Status
Not open for further replies.

HelloKiddo

bemused observer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
777
Reaction score
151
As to sexism being a factor in the industry as a whole I suspect that there is some, but not nearly as much as you're suggesting. (Suppose that makes me 'naive,' ;-)

-----

But the way to amend that is for women to excel in their fields and prove the stupid lingering biases wrong.

I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting a few of your points slightly out of context, so please tell me if I've muddled your point at all. I just assume your suggestion for fixing sexism in society is the same as your suggestion for fixing sexism in the literary world.

I think the point here is that a lot of women in literature have proved the detractors wrong--I gave three examples in my first post. But the sexism still exists (at least it is many of the opinion of many that it does).

And besides, our idea of what constitutes good literature was created by a gender-biased society. Nobody argues that that woman in your example is very awesome, but "good writers" and "good books" are, (as we have been reminded many many many times on this site) subjective. Throwing yourself in front of a bullet is not.

Which is not to say that all conventional wisdom of literary standards is rubbish, but it does make us wonder how things might have been different if women were more respected and "feminine" books and writers weren't instantly regarded as inferior.
 

Bubastes

bananaed
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
7,394
Reaction score
2,250
Website
www.gracewen.com
But the way to amend that is for women to excel in their fields and prove the stupid lingering biases wrong.

As someone who works in a male-dominated field, I've found that excellence will not change the mind of someone who insists on holding on to a stupid bias.
 

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
2,877
Reaction score
404
Location
United States
Website
www.matthewgraybosch.com
That's fair. Again I'd say that for me, as a reader, to be interested in the plot, I need to be interested in the character first. In order to be interested in the character, he needs to be fully developed.

I suppose it depends on how one defines "fully developed". For my own part, I define it as having exposed every property of a character that needs to be exposed so that the story works. In the case of my own story, the antagonist is trying to manipulate the protagonist using his understanding of the protagonist's psychology and his relationships. So, in order to make the reader believe that the antagonist knows what makes the protagonist tick, I have to show the reader what makes the protagonist tick -- including his relationships and emotions.

I think that for a female writer, that would naturally include his relationships to the people in his life.

I think it might be sexist to make such an assumption. :)

What I do expect is that the judging committee of a major award would have at least this much understanding...

Wait. You expect the members of a committee to think?
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
...Like what Linda said about the Sue Grafton novel - mention makeup briefly and it's a distraction. Mention the guy putting on his fedora and getting a shave and that's universal.

So very true. If it helps any, I think identifying with a man getting a shave is easy and a no-brainer, and it seems silly to have any problem with it. So reverse that, you know?

OTOH, it depends on how much of the emotional part of a novel is meant to be identified with rather than being interesting on its own. Personally, I think there are a lot of male authors who expect me to identify with their MC's need to be the Alpha, for instance. Well, I don't identify with that. If a great part of the interest relies on 'you know how this feels,' I don't.

Same for women handling emotional issues.

I do like emotional issues in novels, but I like them to be interesting, maybe quirky, on their own. In a way, I don't like having to identify with a character. I like to watch :D

And I don't think this 'problem' with female authors happens overwhelmingly, personally. Maybe they are cutting a new niche in mystery[slash-romance], etc, but that's cutting a new niche, I'd think. I don't know; do they sell?

Women do write gender-neutrally, too. But mentioning lipstick once is a different yardstick, and that's unfair.
 

Selah March

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
542
Reaction score
109
I suppose it depends on how one defines "fully developed". For my own part, I define it as having exposed every property of a character that needs to be exposed so that the story works.

I absolutely agree there are stories out there that could and do "work" without delving into the characters' private lives at all. I'm not sure I'd want to read them.

Apropos of that, I recently went on a Raymond Chandler binge. I assume (perhaps mistakenly, as I'm not well-read in the genre) that Philip Marlowe is about as hard-boiled as you can get this side of Mickey Spillane, and yet we still get many fascinating insights into his loneliness, his yearning for connection on the cold, mean streets of LA, his dissatisfaction with the emptiness of his life outside of his work. Had Chandler not included this, I likely wouldn't have read beyond The Big Sleep.


I think it might be sexist to make such an assumption. :)

I think you might be right. :) Allow me to amend my statement?

I think that for many -- though certainly not all -- female writers of my acquaintance, that would naturally include his relationships to the people in his life.



Wait. You expect the members of a committee to think?

It's not the first time I've made that mistake.
 

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
... it honestly amazes me that any sensible person could continue to hold on to a sexist attitude in the face of a woman (they know personally!) exceling and doing well in their field. It defies common sence and logic. But there is sadly an irrational component in the human psyche. So perhaps those who have said that sexism can't be eliminated in this way are correct ... to a degree.

Interesting about genre romances requiring happy endings. I never knew that. And my belief that 'many' men write romance was based on just a few opinions I've heard on the issue over the years. So it's not surprising I was wrong on that score.

Good luck everyone here and just keep working hard. Maybe individually your efforts may go under-appreciated, but collectively as a whole you are pushing society forward.
 

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
2,877
Reaction score
404
Location
United States
Website
www.matthewgraybosch.com
... it honestly amazes me that any sensible person could continue to hold on to a sexist attitude in the face of a woman (they know personally!) exceling and doing well in their field.

Homo sapiens is a misnomer when applied to the majority of the species. :)
 

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
Homo sapiens is a misnomer when applied to the majority of the species. :)

... I've always been of the (quite possibly mistaken) opinion that most homosapiens are good, but that they are made bad or un-homosapien-ized by a few bad, but influential, people who drag down everybody within their vicinity. So I agree with you on the surface at least :)
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 42

So, a bunch of small-minded wankers at Publishers Weekly compiled a list of their favorites, and not one of them had been written by a woman? This only matters because people pay attention to PW. Ignore PW; their opinions only matter because people allow them to matter.

Err . . . that's all well and good until you've published a book you want bookstores to carry, and libraries to offer.

PW is still important in terms of sales.
 

Deleted member 42

I can't figure out if it's satire, lol!


I wonder if women are afraid to bother to write the coming-of-age novel from a female perspective. Is there a smaller selection pool of women writing about these things? Do they think both men and women aren't interested in those stories?.

No, not at all there are enough of them written, currently and in terms of the canon that they are studied--"female bildungsroman."

Note that the male bildungsroman is simply a "bildungsroman" ;)
 

Deleted member 42

Oh please, of course there's no sexism in publishing.

If there were still problems with sexism, you wouldn't see publishers, editors, and agents suggesting that men writing romance change their names to something feminine, or women writing anything but romance or childcare and household management, cooking and craft books, use male names or reduce their names to initials or use a name that not sex-specific.

Oh. Wait a minute . . .
 

Wayne K

Banned
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
21,564
Reaction score
8,082
I love problems. I love to point to them and talk about them as much as the next "person" :D

I like solutions more. Is there anything that can be done? Sexism is an age old problem that is getting better, Can we find what worked with other things and use it here?
 

Wayne K

Banned
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
21,564
Reaction score
8,082
I'm kind of a moron so that might be a stupid question.
 

Deleted member 42

I love problems. I love to point to them and talk about them as much as the next "person" :D

I like solutions more. Is there anything that can be done? Sexism is an age old problem that is getting better, Can we find what worked with other things and use it here?

I'm all about solutions.

One thing we can do is to point and say -- hunnnhhh.

Sorta odd that there aren't any women included/mentioned/listed.

and

Sorta odd that there aren't any men included/mentioned/listed.

Or Walloons . . . the thing is, no one wants to have percentages or quotas. What we want is The Best, of whatever It is.

But I don't think it's a bad idea to double-check ourselves, all of us.

Another thing is to call attention to Really Good Stuff (books, music, ideas, thoughtful gestures) by BOTH sexes.

It's easy to forget to call attention to stuff we take for granted, so I'm trying to not take good ideas, good writing, good art, or just being a good person for granted.

I'm trying to point to it/them/people and say Hey. I like you/them/this/that, and think you did a really good thing. And then get other people to look, too.

There's a thing where we are more likely to overlook women in some contexts and and overlook men in others.

Heaven knows I've been at highly technical meetings, have suggested a solution, had my solution examined and adopted--but then credited to a male colleague (sometimes when he wasn't even present!).

N.B. It isn't always sexism--sometimes, that's the way it works, ESPECIALLY in publishing. I know that when I've read blind submissions (when the reader is "blind" about who is subbing because data has been removed) I have:

1. Approved only male-authored books/articles on some occasions, and on others, only female. I really didn't know the sex while reading, and didn't much care.

2. Rejected stuff by someone I wouldn't have expected to reject. In hindsight, when I've (often in a panic) re-read the thing once I know who wrote it, I've mostly decided I was right to reject it.
 

Wayne K

Banned
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
21,564
Reaction score
8,082
I'm all about solutions.

One thing we can do is to point and say -- hunnnhhh.

Sorta odd that there aren't any women included/mentioned/listed.

and

Sorta odd that there aren't any men included/mentioned/listed.

Or Walloons . . . the thing is, no one wants to have percentages or quotas. What we want is The Best, of whatever It is.

But I don't think it's a bad idea to double-check ourselves, all of us.

Another thing is to call attention to Really Good Stuff (books, music, ideas, thoughtful gestures) by BOTH sexes.

It's easy to forget to call attention to stuff we take for granted, so I'm trying to not take good ideas, good writing, good art, or just being a good person for granted.

I'm trying to point to it/them/people and say Hey. I like you/them/this/that, and think you did a really good thing. And then get other people to look, too.

There's a thing where we are more likely to overlook women in some contexts and and overlook men in others.

Heaven knows I've been at highly technical meetings, have suggested a solution, had my solution examined and adopted--but then credited to a male colleague (sometimes when he wasn't even present!).

N.B. It isn't always sexism--sometimes, that's the way it works, ESPECIALLY in publishing. I know that when I've read blind submissions (when the reader is "blind" about who is subbing because data has been removed) I have:

1. Approved only male-authored books/articles on some occasions, and on others, only female. I really didn't know the sex while reading, and didn't much care.

2. Rejected stuff by someone I wouldn't have expected to reject. In hindsight, when I've (often in a panic) re-read the thing once I know who wrote it, I've mostly decided I was right to reject it.
I was talking about setting fires and turning over cars. For now I'll call this plan B. :D
 

BigWords

Geekzilla
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
10,670
Reaction score
2,360
Location
inside the machine
We can always set fires and turn over cars while we wait, right? Something to pass the time...
 

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
40,775
Reaction score
5,947
Location
Some personalized demiplane
This list is stupid. PW is stupid. We should burn their place down Peacefully protest them.

Also, as a random personal side note, I actually got to meet one of my favorite authors, Tamora Perice. She could beat the shit out of me.
 

Susan B

Accordion Dreams
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
1,210
Reaction score
319
Location
California
Website
www.blairkilpatrick.com
A man in my writing group periodically offers criticism, then "qualifies" it by adding: of course this may be aimed mostly at women readers.

He recently offered this thought, in relation to a proposal I'm putting together for my second memoir/narrative nonfiction book, which involves ethnic identity/family issues (including a famous ethnic writer/relative who died under mysterious circumstances):

He needed to remember this book would probably appeal mostly to women readers, the kind of people who liked Angela's Ashes and the Joy Luck Club!

He's a nice, supportive, guy, too.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
(So I guess I'll just keep writing...)
 

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
9,232
Reaction score
1,897
Location
Providence, RI
You weren't aware that a penis emparts super writing skills to its owner? Sheesh, no wonder they say women are illogical!

Yeah, because the best writers actually WRITE WITH their penises. Strap on that pen or wheel over that extra-large-keys keyboard, and they're good to go. Can get ouchie during writing marathons and NaNoWriMo, though.

:scared:
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
Sure. Wait for the old people with the bad old attitudes to retire and die, and then get younger people with better attitudes on the job. :)
You're no fun.

I say we give nature a helping hand.

But you, with your psychic mindreading peen o'clairvoyance, already knew I was thinking that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.