Proof we're not the only apes to grieve?

shawkins

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I've ne'er believed that animals couldn't mourn and I wasn't aware that it was a belief of the majority.

Is that a belief of the majority? Serious question. Majority? What say you?

Tell that to my dog who, after I had punished him for something, dropped a bone on my head as I walked downstairs.

Hee hee hee. Along the same lines:

Until I got a fenced in back yard I had all my pooches cooped up in the house. Every night we went for a jog. This was a big deal for the little darlings, I'm convinced they looked forward to it all day.

The vet told me that for the first couple days after Renny (my alpha female) gave birth it would be a bad idea for her to go out on the daily jog. The first day after she gave birth she bounced around as usual, waiting to get leashed up. The second day she looked up at me like 'Dude. WTF? Did you forget me or something?' The third day she just sat there & glowered.

When I got back from the jog on day 3 she had taken a big giant dump on my spot on the sofa[SUP]1[/SUP].

Their sense of humor is probably more Beavis & Butthead than Merchant Ivory, but there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that it does exist.

[SUP]1[/SUP] On previous occasions I've had esteemed members of AW express doubt about the veracity of some of my dog anecdotes. I hereby swear that I'm not lying or exaggerating. Your interpretation might differ from mine, but the basic facts are true.
 

Gretad08

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Is that a belief of the majority? Serious question. Majority? What say you?



Hee hee hee. Along the same lines:

Until I got a fenced in back yard I had all my pooches cooped up in the house. Every night we went for a jog. This was a big deal for the little darlings, I'm convinced they looked forward to it all day.

The vet told me that for the first couple days after Renny (my alpha female) gave birth it would be a bad idea for her to go out on the daily jog. The first day after she gave birth she bounced around as usual, waiting to get leashed up. The second day she looked up at me like 'Dude. WTF? Did you forget me or something?' The third day she just sat there & glowered.

When I got back from the jog on day 3 she had taken a big giant dump on my spot on the sofa[SUP]1[/SUP].

Their sense of humor is probably more Beavis & Butthead than Merchant Ivory, but there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that it does exist.

[SUP]1[/SUP] On previous occasions I've had esteemed members of AW express doubt about the veracity of some of my dog anecdotes. I hereby swear that I'm not lying or exaggerating. Your interpretation might differ from mine, but the basic facts are true.

LOL!

My normally perfectly behaved border collie, the most sweet natured dog I've ever met, was mad at me one day b/c I let another dog in our house.

It was our neighbor's dog who had escaped and I was keeping him in my house until they came to pick him up. I shut my dog (Dyna) in the bedroom until the other dog left b/c she was scared.

As soon as I let Dyna out, she ran around the house sniffing everything and then squatted and peed on my foot.
 

rugcat

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure animals have emotions. I've never seen anyone argue anything different.
Animals did not possess souls, Descartes reasoned, and so they were simply pure automatons. What we saw as exhibitions of joy or grief we in truth nothing more than clever counterfeits. It was even argued that animals did not feel pain; they simply reacted to stimuli in a programed way that looked like they were feeling pain.

Philosophers are so wise.
 

Ruv Draba

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Animals did not possess souls, Descartes reasoned, and so they were simply pure automatons. What we saw as exhibitions of joy or grief we in truth nothing more than clever counterfeits. It was even argued that animals did not feel pain; they simply reacted to stimuli in a programed way that looked like they were feeling pain.

Philosophers are so wise.
It's easy to mock philosophers. They often have bad answers but they're often the first to ask good questions.

Western philosophy has traditionally drawn distinct divisions between 'mind' (an intangible, abstract entity) and 'body' a (tangible, concrete entity). This dualism pre-dates Descartes, and goes all the way back past Aristotle and Plato, to the Iranian prophet Zoroaster (who is generally held to have had influence on Judaism, Christianity and Islam).

Descartes popularised and formalised dualism and so pervasive is his paradigm that we now have different sciences for each: psychology and physiology.

This particular division means that for us to consider animal thoughts and emotions, we need to argue not that they have brains (we know they generally do), but that they have minds. The possible relationship between brain and mind has always been mysterious; the first doesn't necessarily imply the second (as illustrated by a comatose patient, or shoppers at a clearance sale). Does the second require the first?

I don't know whether we yet have a reliable test for mind -- it's not conversation (computer programs can manage that); it's not necessarily brainwaves. I don't know what it is.

But at core, the mind/body split is socially constructed. If we don't listen to Zoroaster and his successors but look at other societies, they often see things differently.

And mind -- whatever it is -- seems not to just be located in the brain. A recent test with placebo painkillers (tablets that don't actually do anything) showed that spinal nerves fire less with a placebo. So apparently, our spinal-column is part of our mental system too. Moreover, there's a whole branch of psychology called somatic psychology that works on changing mental patterns by changing the mind-body interaction, using essentially a different construct of how we think. Though its theoretical foundations seem dubious (a lot of somatic psychologists have some belief in vitalism), in clinical use it has enjoyed noticable success for certain therapies (like trauma disorders). So who's to say that body isn't also in the end, part of mind?

And if body is part of mind then it's very hard to argue that other animals with their awfully clever bodies, don't also have awfully clever minds -- we might just need to shift our Zoroastrian/Cartesian dualist construct to something more practical to fully appreciate it. (Scientists, for the most part, have already had to do this.)
 
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rosiroo

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I've ne'er believed that animals couldn't mourn and I wasn't aware that it was a belief of the majority.



Tell that to my dog who, after I had punished him for something, dropped a bone on my head as I walked downstairs.

This made me laugh out loud. I love dogs.
 

TerzaRima

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Their sense of humor is probably more Beavis & Butthead than Merchant Ivory, but there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that it does exist.

Mine either. Case in point--I had one reasonably lazy summer in medical school studying for boards. My dog clearly thought this was awesome--me spending lots of time at home, lots of belly rubs, the two of us cuddled up on the couch reviewing biochemistry note cards. Then I resumed my class schedule in September. When I came home late on that first afternoon and walked by the usual jumble of shoes near the door, there were small turds neatly angled into one of my Keds, like toys left by St Nicholas in children's shoes.
 

Rowan

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Mine either. Case in point--I had one reasonably lazy summer in medical school studying for boards. My dog clearly thought this was awesome--me spending lots of time at home, lots of belly rubs, the two of us cuddled up on the couch reviewing biochemistry note cards. Then I resumed my class schedule in September. When I came home late on that first afternoon and walked by the usual jumble of shoes near the door, there were small turds neatly angled into one of my Keds, like toys left by St Nicholas in children's shoes.

I'm sorry but..............that's :roll:
 

DeleyanLee

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My best friend's husband died in a road accident in '06. He was a long-haul trucker. His cat knew when he was supposed to be home (out six, home one), so when he didn't come home the cat fretted around the door as cats will when they're waiting or concerned. When he didn't come home at all, the cat disappeared into the basement and wouldn't come out. When we finally found him, he was listless and didn't care when we pulled him out from behind the furnace (as close as he could get into his owner's workroom down there). Cat didn't want to be petted, didn't want to be touched and disappeared as soon as we allowed him. He hid somewherre else so we couldn't find him again.

My friend had to move the cat food to the basement. Then he wrapped himself around the food bowl and we never saw him move for almost six months. It was just before we started packing her up to move here that he started coming out of his grief. Poor cat had gained almost 4 lbs during his depression.

I've heard the scientific theory that humans are the only animals who grieve, however it was only recently that science "discovered" that other animals dream too.

Ain't science wonderful? :rolleyes:
 

GeorgeK

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Geese mate for life (some breeds) and if one of a pair dies, it is not unusual for the other to just sit down and die too.
 

Albedo

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Language is the only cognitive domain where there's a huge gap between humans and other animals. I'm always surprised when people are surprised that animals can show complex emotion, tool use or evidence of planning and thought. Of course they show happiness, anger, grief and fear, their brains work in much the same way as ours do.

Mine either. Case in point--I had one reasonably lazy summer in medical school studying for boards. My dog clearly thought this was awesome--me spending lots of time at home, lots of belly rubs, the two of us cuddled up on the couch reviewing biochemistry note cards. Then I resumed my class schedule in September. When I came home late on that first afternoon and walked by the usual jumble of shoes near the door, there were small turds neatly angled into one of my Keds, like toys left by St Nicholas in children's shoes.

I had the opposite experience. I'd been home a day after my gruelling exams, and awoke to find my toy poodle had expressed her love for me by barfing all over the foot of my bed. While I was asleep in it. Poodles are adoring, faithful, vindictive dogs. :D
 

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I had the opposite experience. I'd been home a day after my gruelling exams, and awoke to find my toy poodle had expressed her love for me by barfing all over the foot of my bed. While I was asleep in it. Poodles are adoring, faithful, vindictive dogs. :D

I have two poodles!! The oldest was one when I brought the youngest home. He wee'ed in my slipper and I went to put it on and --- ugh. That was the extent of his displeasure......... :)
 

Albedo

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I have two poodles!! The oldest was one when I brought the youngest home. He wee'ed in my slipper and I went to put it on and --- ugh. That was the extent of his displeasure......... :)

Once, my extended family was staying at my grandmother's house for the holidays. We all went out one morning to go shopping, leaving her boistrous and somewhat calculating standard poodle to guard the house. When we returned home, he'd taken one (and precisely one) item belonging to each person in the house, laid them on my grandmother's bed, and shredded them. I was lucky, I lost a pair of underwear. Someone else got a chewed Gameboy. :D
 

Rowan

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Once, my extended family was staying at my grandmother's house for the holidays. We all went out one morning to go shopping, leaving her boistrous and somewhat calculating standard poodle to guard the house. When we returned home, he'd taken one (and precisely one) item belonging to each person in the house, laid them on my grandmother's bed, and shredded them. I was lucky, I lost a pair of underwear. Someone else got a chewed Gameboy. :D

What color are your poods - including your GM's standard? They are smart - no doubt about that... thankfully mine haven't resorted to shredding anything yet. My youngest will wee on things but he wears a belly band when visiting relatives!
 

Albedo

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My dog is black with sort of harlequin markings (white lower legs, chest and muzzle), but she may actually be part schnauzer, noone's sure. Nana's last three dogs have all been black standards.