The Lisbon Treaty : Part Deux

emilycross

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Hope this thread is ok, Irish citizens are being asked again to vote on Lisbon

but i'm still an undecided (and was out of the country for the first time round) so was wondering what people think of the treaty (from irish, or/and EU pov)? the new revisions? and the second time around?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
 

Vincent

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So they're just going to keep doing this until they get the outcome they want, right?
 

emilycross

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Essentially but at least (according to the political parties) they've made all (or most) of the adjustments that was wanted e.g. ireland's neutrality etc. but these were done through 'declaration' and not through 'protocol', although i think (not completely sure) EU has always honoured these declarations.
 
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Fran

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Here's hoping you all get it right this time, emily. ;)

I'm fairly pro-Europe but I think this kind of behaviour is disgraceful, and does nothing for the EU's claims to be democratic. But we didn't get to vote on it at all so you're still doing better than us. Basically our government believes that we wouldn't understand it, which is probably true, but why didn't they bother explaining it to us? I'm fairly certain it's because they knew they'd lose anyway, so why waste their time? But then the argument about whether uninformed democracy is better than no democracy arises. Regardless of whether you agree with the outcome in Ireland and The Netherlands or not, they were democratic decisions, and in my opinion they should be respected.
 
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Don

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They've got to get it perfected before they copy it for the North American Union. They know it's going to be a harder sell on this side of the pond. :D
 

Fran

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They've got to get it perfected before they copy it for the North American Union. They know it's going to be a harder sell on this side of the pond. :D

Join us.... join us.... :D
 

emilycross

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Well it looks like its going to be a 'yes' from Ireland,

Ganley from the 'no to lisbon' group was saying he hopes that Czech Republic stalls it as long as possible to allow the Tories (if the get in) to call for a referendom as promised. Should be interesting if uk do call a referendom over it as i doubt (IMO) they would pass it.
 
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backslashbaby

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A yes, really? I missed all the posters this time round. Y'all were as bad as we are, if that's not too offensive to say ;) :D!
 

endless rewrite

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Gordon Brown promised us a referendum and then decided to just forget about it in-case we voted in a way he did not like, something I suspect he is going to have to get used to in the non too distant future. Today is a sad day for democracy. Just keep voting until you vote the way 'we' want. Oh yeah and then we can all have Tony Blair as an unelected president, hip hip hooray...kind of goes with our unelected PM.

I need a drink.
 

emilycross

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our unelected PM.

I need a drink.

Sure we're the same here, Bertie 'retires' when things go down the toilet and Cowen steps in as Taoiseach (pm) - no election or anything called.

Anyhoo a resounding yes, - i can't believe there was 78% turnout to vote in someplaces (drogheda) thats amazing (and really great) that people were voting!
 
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Fran

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Ha ha! Ireland is captured! Now we just need to convert the Dutch :evil

Technically British Prime Ministers are never elected. The party is elected and whoever's leading (or in Gordon Brown's case, shambling) gets to be Prime Minister. We're all really thick, and can't be trusted to choose the leader of the party we want in charge. That's left to party members and MPs, and we all know MPs are the most intelligent people in the UK.

I'm really pleased by the turnout too, emily. Anything that gets people voting is a good thing in my view.
 

emilycross

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Ha ha! Ireland is captured! Now we just need to convert the Dutch :evil

Technically British Prime Ministers are never elected. The party is elected and whoever's leading (or in Gordon Brown's case, shambling) gets to be Prime Minister. We're all really thick, and can't be trusted to choose the leader of the party we want in charge. That's left to party members and MPs, and we all know MPs are the most intelligent people in the UK.

I'm really pleased by the turnout too, emily. Anything that gets people voting is a good thing in my view.

Much the same here (ours is based on yours, i think). Yeah, the pressure is off at least. Czech president is waiting for the courts to decide if its constitutional now before he signs so a bit of a way off.

If Cameron does get in, in your elections (Fran, as a scottish person, you vote in british elections, yeah? Apologies if thats stupid question) it will be interesting to see if he would hold referendom? or would it be opportunity for tories? (are they anti-europe as a party?)
 

Fran

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Yeah, we vote in the Westminster elections as well. So we have MPs and MSPs up here, which is great value for money. :rolleyes:

The Tories in general are anti-Europe. The most prominent exception is Ken Clarke but he's a great statesman so the Tories tolerate it. As for a referendum, I don't know, but they're certainly more likely to hold one than Labour because the Tories would be quite happy with a No vote. It's probably going to get lost in all the other stuff they'll have to do, such as butchering public services and chucking people on the dole. (I'm not a Tory :D) I've heard no mention of the Lisbon Treaty here for a while, so it wouldn't surprise me if the issue disappears without trace. Plus, Gordon Brown signed it, so I don't know how much they can really do about it.

ETA: Cameron today has refused to say whether he'd hold one or not. But Boris wants one. So that's good.
 
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