Is America Coming Apart?

Prozyan

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You don't see Limbaugh and his supporters as being angrily polarized?

Ok. I see one group, Limbaugh, angrily polarized against whatever it is they don't like. I see Code Pink angrily polarized against war and violence. Hell, I even see PETA angrily polarized against pet owners.

I don't see anywhere near a majority, or even significant percentage, of the 300+ million Americans angrily polarized against anything, let alone each other.
 
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Cranky

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If this were simply about "religious people," then I would agree with most of what you're saying. But this isn't about religious people or religion. Religious people and religion are extremely broad terms, covering all manners of culture and belief. What this is about is the people who believe in Jesus Christ, and in that regard there is a blind refusal to accept other people's views that is written into the book itself.

C'mon, DW, that's pretty broad strokes, there. I believe in Jesus, and yet I have no problem with the fact that others don't share that belief, or any belief (religious, that is) system at all. It's one of the greatest things about our country, as far as I'm concerned, that freedom of religion is one our the bedrocks. Some people forget that, which is true. But so long as there are plenty of other people (whether of faith or not) who are willing to remind them of that fact, I think we'll be okay.
 

Cranky

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You don't see Limbaugh and his supporters as being angrily polarized?

Limbaugh gets paid big bucks to stir shit. Some of his supporters are angry, sure. But there are plenty of other people of other ideologies that are angry, too. I used to speak with a woman about my mother's age online quite frequently. Supernice lady I wouldn't know otherwise, as she lived far from me, was of a different race and generation and socioeconomic class (she was pretty upper middle class). Dyed in the wool Democrat, and very, very angry about Republicans, and GWB especially. Now, apparently Republican partisans are carrying the baton and are equally angry at Obama and the Democrats. It's all a crying shame, if you ask me.

The world today (at least in America, unfortunately I am too provincial to be able to comment with any authority on other nations) seems like a very scary place to be living in. People are losing jobs and finding it hard to replace those jobs. Technology is evolving faster, news comes at us from all directions, filtered through the sources' various biases. We're fighting a war on two fronts, and our young people are dying and being wounded there. Our politicians think nothing of demonizing each other, and people are afraid to even smile at each other on the street in places. Our children are going to be growing up in a place that sometimes even we adults have trouble comprehending. It's easier than ever to get freaked out about the state of the world and our place in it, if you're vulnerable to it. If someone is ready, willing, able and handsomely paid to stoke the fires of that fear with a ready-made boogeyman, well...the results are pretty predictable, to my way of thinking.
 

rugcat

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This trait is not unique to religious people. Non-religious people exhibit the same closed-mindedness, the same "my way or the highway" attitude and refusal to accept the beliefs of others as valid or worthy of respect.
This is true. But certain religious groups wish to see their particular values, based on their religious beliefs, codified into civil law, applicable to everyone, whether those others share their beliefs or not. I don't see that type of desire to control the behavior of others coming so much from the non religious.

Not all religious people of course. I have many devout friends who are as appalled by that kind of thinking as I am. But there is a certain subset of them that is gaining power in politics and I think it's promoting a lot of the divisiveness.
 

Death Wizard

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C'mon, DW, that's pretty broad strokes, there. I believe in Jesus, and yet I have no problem with the fact that others don't share that belief, or any belief (religious, that is) system at all. It's one of the greatest things about our country, as far as I'm concerned, that freedom of religion is one our the bedrocks. Some people forget that, which is true. But so long as there are plenty of other people (whether of faith or not) who are willing to remind them of that fact, I think we'll be okay.

I sincerely don't want this to deteriorate into Christian bashing, but does not your book say that anyone who doesn't believe is doomed? It's that point of view that drives the Religious Right, is it not?
 

Death Wizard

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Limbaugh gets paid big bucks to stir shit. Some of his supporters are angry, sure. But there are plenty of other people of other ideologies that are angry, too. I used to speak with a woman about my mother's age online quite frequently. Supernice lady I wouldn't know otherwise, as she lived far from me, was of a different race and generation and socioeconomic class (she was pretty upper middle class). Dyed in the wool Democrat, and very, very angry about Republicans, and GWB especially. Now, apparently Republican partisans are carrying the baton and are equally angry at Obama and the Democrats. It's all a crying shame, if you ask me.

The world today (at least in America, unfortunately I am too provincial to be able to comment with any authority on other nations) seems like a very scary place to be living in. People are losing jobs and finding it hard to replace those jobs. Technology is evolving faster, news comes at us from all directions, filtered through the sources' various biases. We're fighting a war on two fronts, and our young people are dying and being wounded there. Our politicians think nothing of demonizing each other, and people are afraid to even smile at each other on the street in places. Our children are going to be growing up in a place that sometimes even we adults have trouble comprehending. It's easier than ever to get freaked out about the state of the world and our place in it, if you're vulnerable to it. If someone is ready, willing, able and handsomely paid to stoke the fires of that fear with a ready-made boogeyman, well...the results are pretty predictable, to my way of thinking.

Is this not supporting my point? Limbaugh on the right is one example. There also are examples on the left. When I say angrily polarized, I'm not saying that only one side is in the wrong. What I'm saying is that it is worse than it's ever been. IMO.
 

Cranky

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I sincerely don't want this to deteriorate into Christian bashing, but does not your book say that anyone who doesn't believe is doomed? It's that point of view that drives the Religious Right, is it not?

Doomed. That's a loaded word, and I don't understand how that matters here. And that's getting into a whole other topic more suited for the religion forum, though, so I think it's best if we left that part of the discussion alone.

What I will say is that there are some Christians who believe that our nation is a nation of Christians and that we should have laws which reflect that. Problem is, not all Christians agree on what it "really" means to be a good Christian, and many more besides are frankly appalled at the idea of codifying their beliefs into law. Not to mention, they are also keenly aware of "freedom of religion" and that they are not the only religion in town, so to speak. I am one of those.

ETA: Glad to see we agree there are angry people on all sides. I can't say that it's worse than it's ever been, but I remember it being bad when I was a child and Reagan was in office. Got worse with "No new taxes!" and Monica-gate, and I sometimes wonder if it's not a sort of cumulative effect. Between intense societal and technological changes, I think a lot of people are feeling bewildered, and that makes them angry.
 
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SPMiller

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Not really, deathwizard. We'll only know it's "as bad" if civil war breaks out. There's no way to know if it's worse.

I personally am not interested in shooting at conservatives.
 

Death Wizard

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Doomed. That's a loaded word, and I don't understand how that matters here. And that's getting into a whole other topic more suited for the religion forum, though, so I think it's best if we left that part of the discussion alone.

What I will say is that there are some Christians who believe that our nation is a nation of Christians and that we should have laws which reflect that. Problem is, not all Christians agree on what it "really" means to be a good Christian, and many more besides are frankly appalled at the idea of codifying their beliefs into law. Not to mention, they are also keenly aware of "freedom of religion" and that they are not the only religion in town, so to speak. I am one of those.

ETA: Glad to see we agree there are angry people on all sides. I can't say that it's worse than it's ever been, but I remember it being bad when I was a child and Reagan was in office. Got worse with "No new taxes!" and Monica-gate, and I sometimes wonder if it's not a sort of cumulative effect. Between intense societal and technological changes, I think a lot of people are feeling bewildered, and that makes them angry.

Doomed is a biblical word. But you're right, wrong forum. Sorry.
 

Cranky

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Well, we've all talked a lot about the things that divide us in this thread. Anyone want to take a stab at why we are still one nation despite it all?
 

Cranky

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Football? :tongue

Wait, that would mean I'm not part of the nation. :cry:

Sure ya are! :D

We're still one nation because all of us believe that freedom should preside above all else.

I think that's a big part of it, too. I think most of us admire what our forefathers tried to do, and we are in many ways still a young nation, an experiment. Any good experiment means occasional explosions, if ya ask me. Plus we get cool fireworks on the 4th. :D

Football is nothing but pain, sorrow, and phantom holding penalties.

We can completely agree on that. Except when your team is winning.

Cranky,
whose Steelers won it in overtime despite a rare oopsie from Heinz Ward
 
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Cranky

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True.

Also, we have BBQ Lays potato chips. That's completely awesome, IMO.
 

Romantic Heretic

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Sigh.

Zoombie, I haven't been here long. Nor have I believed that America is going to go the way of Yugoslavia for long either. But I have been observing America a long time and I've never seen it so polarized. Neither side of the debate will even listen to each other any more. All they can do is scream insults at each other.

The reactions to my post are a case in point. Few of the people who disagreed with me said, "I don't think that's true and here is why." They all screamed, in short, "How dare you, you fucking asshole!"

Do I think America is going to fall apart tomorrow? No. I do feel though it is a strong possibility that sometime in the next generation the chasms between the various groups that make it up will be too wide for the forces holding America together to continue working.

I do apologize for using the religious metaphor. But when I observe the blind faith and extreme wrath that characterizes much of modern American political dialog my mind draws up the parallel of Europe not long after Protestantism came into existence. It seems now, like then, many people can't stand the existence of heresy nor the people that hold that heresy.

With that, I'm out of this thread. Being the center of so much hatred is quite debilitating.
 

Death Wizard

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Sure ya are! :D



I think that's a big part of it, too. I think most of us admire what our forefathers tried to do, and we are in many ways still a young nation, an experiment. Any good experiment means occasional explosions, if ya ask me. Plus we get cool fireworks on the 4th. :D



We can completely agree on that. Except when your team is winning.

Cranky,
whose Steelers won it in overtime despite a rare oopsie from Heinz Ward

I have no sympathy for Steelers or Patriots fans. Phantom holding calls never go against them.
 

rugcat

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Well, we've all talked a lot about the things that divide us in this thread. Anyone want to take a stab at why we are still one nation despite it all?
Maybe it's because the haters we see on TV (and occasionally in politics) really are a minority. We're a big country. If you get less than one percent of people riled over something, that's a couple of million shouting in the streets and it looks quite impressive.

I live half the time in the Bay Area, which has a hugely diverse ethnic mix of people, though of course not so diverse politically. But I spend the other half in Utah, an ethnically homogeneous state, extremely conservative. Where I live, I'm surrounded by people who are far, far to the right of me. But we get along just fine. I like my neighbors. They like me. They are not hate filled people by any stretch of the imagination, any more than I am.

Maybe that's the real America after all. I surely hope so.
 

Cranky

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Sigh.

Zoombie, I haven't been here long. Nor have I believed that America is going to go the way of Yugoslavia for long either. But I have been observing America a long time and I've never seen it so polarized. Neither side of the debate will even listen to each other any more. All they can do is scream insults at each other.

The reactions to my post are a case in point. Few of the people who disagreed with me said, "I don't think that's true and here is why." They all screamed, in short, "How dare you, you fucking asshole!"

Do I think America is going to fall apart tomorrow? No. I do feel though it is a strong possibility that sometime in the next generation the chasms between the various groups that make it up will be too wide for the forces holding America together to continue working.

I do apologize for using the religious metaphor. But when I observe the blind faith and extreme wrath that characterizes much of modern American political dialog my mind draws up the parallel of Europe not long after Protestantism came into existence. It seems now, like then, many people can't stand the existence of heresy nor the people that hold that heresy.

With that, I'm out of this thread. Being the center of so much hatred is quite debilitating.

Hatred? I'm gonna have to re-read the thread, but I don't think I've seen anything rising to that level. If I am wrong, I will say so, amongst other things. That said, strong disagreement = / hatred, and your opinion is as welcome as anyone else's, RH. I for one like getting a chance to view our country from the outside from time to time.
 

Cranky

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I have no sympathy for Steelers or Patriots fans. Phantom holding calls never go against them.

Well, right now I don't need no steeenkin sympathy. Neeener! Also, I'm a big Bears fan, too. Or more accurately, a Brian Urlacher fan. :D I'm excited to see how Jay Cutler works out there.

Ahem. Bad mod. I's sorry, but I do loves me some football. :D
 

Cranky

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Maybe it's because the haters we see on TV (and occasionally in politics) really are a minority. We're a big country. If you get less than one percent of people riled over something, that's a couple of million shouting in the streets and it looks quite impressive.

I live half the time in the Bay Area, which has a hugely diverse ethnic mix of people, though of course not so diverse politically. But I spend the other half in Utah, an ethnically homogeneous state, extremely conservative. Where I live, I'm surrounded by people who are far, far to the right of me. But we get along just fine. I like my neighbors. They like me. They are not hate filled people by any stretch of the imagination, any more than I am.

Maybe that's the real America after all. I surely hope so.

I truly believe it is, Rugcat. I have friends and family who disagree with me on any number of things, including politics, and yet we still love each other. The ties that bind us are made of sterner stuff than of the hot air talking heads and pols running for re-election send out.

ETA: I'll give you a for instance: which do you think stands out more vividly in my mind -- the fact that my family was incredibly awesome when my son was dx'd, or the woman that accosted us in a grocery store and demanded that we chelate our child, or be thought of as irresponsible parents? Yep. The ugly tends to stand out more, sadly, and I am not immune to this. I make a conscious effort to toss that stuff out like that garbage it is, but it's hard, and often overshadows the good.
 
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blacbird

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No.

Pat Buchanan is under contract to write columns. He seems short of relevant material in this one, but hey, he's gotta put out X number of words, so he did.

We are, frankly, a hell of a lot less divided today than we were forty years ago, just as one example. I'm old enough to remember those days as a young adult. 90% of today's populace don't have that first-hand experience of our history. Buchanan, of course, does, as he was deeply embedded on one side of that divide. But, like I said, he has a word obligation to fill.

caw