Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

Big Wolf

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Question about complexity in a commercial novel:
How complex is too complex?
I have finished the first draft of a historical fantasy novel (I'm a bit uncomfortable with that label, but that's the subject of another thread), which is a fairly straightforward plot, but includes a lot of themes.
Plot: boy's parents are murdered, he uses magical heirloom to avenge them, which starts him on a quest. He avenges his parents, then gets exiled from his home (a very poor village) and goes to Constantinople to learn the secret of his heirloom. On the way, he kills a dragon.
The heirloom gets stolen, he begins another quest to recover it, kills monsters.
Intertwined in this is a love story: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back but finds out she's really not right for him.
He also grow up a lot and learns to trust himself.

In the story, I have deliberately incorporated as many of the myths that underlie much of western literature as I can: the fisher king, Sigfried, the Evil King, the doomed mentor, etc.

There is a look at early Christianity and its struggle through disparate beliefs that were labeled heresies, as well as looks at mythologies and religions of ancient Europe, and at Gnosticism and mysticism.

So, is this too much? It's around 130,000 words, and the plot is fairly straightforward: crime, revenge, quest, boy meets girl, loses girl, loses heirloom, gets it all back at the end. And I like to tell myself the plot hangs together.

What do you think, Uncle Jim?
 

Big Wolf

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Cliche versus archetype

I am very conscious of the issue of cliche. But I do want to expand upon archetypes and established myths of the western world. In fact, the main point I want to exposit is the idea of major myths of western literature and society. So there are basic stories that I am using. After all, the Greeks said there are only, what, 7 or 8 basic stories:
- boy meets girl
-revenge
- coming of age
- kill the king/father
- the Quest
- a fish out of water
- redemption

So, I am consciously trying to incorporate as many of these themes as possible. Not to overdo it, obviously.

What do you think?

S
 

James D. Macdonald

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What do I think? Without reading the work in question, there's nothing I could possibly think. Is it done well? Does it work?

Do it. When it's done, then you'll know the answer.


I'm going to quote Watt-Evans' Law of Literary Creation: There is no idea so stupid or hackneyed that a sufficiently-talented writer can't get a good story out of it.

And with that, Feist's Corollary: There is no idea so brilliant or original that a sufficiently-untalented writer can't screw it up.

===========

For reasons that I won't go into here, I recently found myself re-reading Raymond Chandler's The Simple Art of Murder. One thing struck me about the essay: He complains that hacks are taking over popular fiction and getting more shelf space and attention than serious writers. The essay was written in 1950.
 

Big Wolf

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That begs the question: when he was writing, was Chandler considered a "serious writer," or a pulp hack himself? I love Chandler's writing, but I don't think the "serious" crowd ever considered him in the same category as Faulker or Steinbeck. Or even Hammet.
 

James D. Macdonald

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We've seen the same complaints right here in the Novels board, from folks ranging from aspiring writers on up. It doesn't seem to matter where in the publishing food chain someone's located.
 

euclid

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In the story, I have deliberately incorporated as many of the myths that underlie much of western literature as I can: the fisher king, Sigfried, the Evil King, the doomed mentor, etc.

Your question prompts a different set of questions: What are these myths that underlie much of western literature? Where can I find out more about these myths and, maybe, a complete list? In what sense do they underlie the said literature? Is it imperative that I answer these questions before I can call myself a writer of western literature?

It seems my education has been sorely lacking. Who knew?

Nice doggie.
 

euclid

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Thanks for that, Jim.

Another question: I believe my efforts to date lack emotional content. I'm hoping my next book will provide an emotional payoff for the reader. To this end, I need to identify possible emotional themes to provide the said payoff.

Is there a reference book for this kind of thing?
 

Big Wolf

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Congrats on finishing another novel.

As for sources, or where you can find out about the underlying myths that are repeated in literature, stories and especially Hollywood movies, I know I was taught about this idea in school and university, but did not pay much attention. But where it came up again was when I read the book Iron John about 10 years ago - it was a big trend. But another good book for this is Medieval Myths by Norma Goodrich, first published in 1961 by Penguin. Your library will probably have a copy.
 

Krintar

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I'm not sure what hay balers have to do with fantasy novels. I don't think I've ever read a fantasy novel which talked about someone making bales of hay...

#33 was brilliant though; it actually did make me laugh out loud.
 

Neversage

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I just took the Fantasy writer's exam, and the results are that I can answer "yes" to one of the questions, and "sort-of" to two others. The rest fall somewhere between "no" and "absolutely not."

I'll admit it, my story is about a good guy who gains power and defeats a bad guy, but that's such a narrow way to look at it in this case; there is so much more than that going on around it.