Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

barbilarry said:

Hi Uncle Jim
I would very much like your opinion on a thread I followed last night. "How do you know if you have talent?" Since you are a successful writer and teach workshops I would be interested in what your thoughts are on this question. Would you advise only your talented students to pursue a writing career? Would you also encourage the ones who have passion to write but not a lot of talent. Have you had students in your workshops that made it and went on to have successful writing careers through perseverance but not a great deal of talent. I fall into the second group I fear, but if there is hope for us who lack talent but have passion and love for the craft of writing, I will carry on.
Thanks
Jane

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As it happens, I'd already commented in that thread:

How do you know you have talent as a writer?

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You don't.

Even after you have a dozen books in print you're still convinced that at any moment your readers, your editors, the reviewers, the publishers, your family and friends will suddenly realize that you don't have any talent and you've been faking it all along.

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If talent, some kind of innate quality that some people have and others don't, is all that it takes, then I'm wasting my time trying to teach people to write.

Talent, whatever you mean by the word, is over-rated. Work, thought, practice, and perseverance are far more important. Fortunately, they're under your control. Talent isn't.

Do you want to look like you have talent? Practice until your fingers bleed. People will say, "Woo! You're talented!"

Only you will know the truth.

Uncle Jim

Thank you so much for your answer. If that's what it takes, I'm gonna get there. I am definately willing to do the work. I'll give all the blood it takes to to get to that point. You rock kind sir.
Jane

RJK said:

I don't consider myself talented, but when I talk to my friends (the honest ones), they tell me they have no idea how I'm able to do what I do, creating my stories.
Even some of the members of the writing group I attend, tell me they can write non-fiction, relating true stories, but have no idea how to create a story from nothing but an idea.
It may not be much, or unique, but at least I (and you) can do that.

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RJK
That has been said to me too. Thank you for including me in your statement. We are both on these threads learning everyday too. That will go a long way getting us to the end of this learning journey and becoming the best writers we can.
Jane

I once heard something like "talent is focused determination." I believe it.

James D. Macdonald said:

Why doesn't your thunderstorm serve a function? Every word needs to either support the theme, reveal character, or advance the plot.

(from vol. I)

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If every weather report in a piece of fiction specifically functions thematically/characteristically/plottastically, do we not fall afoul of the Pathetic Fallacy?

Have received mixed advice. Trying to synthesize. What do you think?


Also, "See Tarzan Run" is totally inspirational. I love both the short-short form and the various 2nd person POVs, and I really want to do a 400-word vignette in See Dick Run style now. You rock.

A quick question (I'll wait my turn):

Once one has a grasp of the mechanics of writing, and feels they are writing mostly clean prose, what aspects of the inner workings of the industry should one learn first (other than how to write a query)? Are there specific sources of information that will aid one in understanding the various major and some of the minor publishers? The act of "learning the publishing world" seems overwhelmingly businesslike. I flounder here.

What are the most influential business-savvy things to learn about the publishing world? And how much do you actually HAVE to know versus what an agent handles for you?

Only curious as I still haven't got a clue about the folks who buy and sell my work. (I suspect I should fix this.)

James D. Macdonald said:

Talent, whatever you mean by the word, is over-rated. Work, thought, practice, and perseverance are far more important. Fortunately, they're under your control. Talent isn't.

Do you want to look like you have talent? Practice until your fingers bleed. People will say, "Woo! You're talented!"

Only you will know the truth.

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I worship this quote.

Libbie said:

I worship this quote.

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So do I Libby. I printed it out, framed it and put it beside my computer where I write. I also put RJK's in a frame just so I know someone else is doing the same thing I am.

Jane

I like how my Creative Fiction teacher put it--that everyone has some talent, and some have more than others, but you never know how much you can maximize it until you, to quote UJ, practice until your fingers bleed.

NicoleJLeBoeuf said:

If every weather report in a piece of fiction specifically functions thematically/characteristically/plottastically, do we not fall afoul of the Pathetic Fallacy?

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No.

The Pathetic Fallacy is assigning human emotions to inanimate objects (e.g. the angry clouds).

I'm suggesting making all the details point in one direction (e.g. the green light on the pier in East Egg in The Great Gatsby, as opposed to a white light, a red light, or not mentioning a light at all.)

Wayne K said:

I believe that work, thought, practice and perseverance are more important than getting caught up in those things, but without my strengths I'm lost. Am I reading this wrong?

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Maybe.

caw

Wayne K said:

I've been reading this thread for months now, and this is the first thing that's disturbed me. The only reason I read and study writing is because I believe I am talented. I have a way with words, I'm funny and I tell great stories, If I can't accentuate those, or control them as you say, I'm wasting my time.

I believe that work, thought, practice and perseverance are more important than getting caught up in those things, but without my strengths I'm lost. Am I reading this wrong?

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I read UJ's comment to mean that work can only improve on whatever talent (big or small) you/one has as a writer. It's better to simply focus on the work (which can be measured) than to depend on some much-less-reliably-quantifiable talent.

In other words (because it is three in the morning and my brain is rapidly shutting down), learning how craft a sentence/paragraph/chapter/novel can only help accentuate your talent.

I think I just said exactly the same thing twice. That's why my true "talent" is to revise in later drafts. Or maybe that's a skill.

Wayne K said:

The only reason I read and study writing is because I believe I am talented.

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The person with preternaturally good eyesight may find it easier to become a marksman. This is good. But it is not sufficient.

Did someone start half-way up the ladder? Excellent! But that doesn't mean that climbing is unnecessary.

The Lonely One said:

Once one has a grasp of the mechanics of writing, and feels they are writing mostly clean prose, what aspects of the inner workings of the industry should one learn first (other than how to write a query)?

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I'm not sure there are any that you need to know. Pay attention to the publisher's colophon on the books you read. Not all publishing houses are the same. Developing an appreciation for the strengths (and distribution!) of the various publishers may help you decide where to query and submit.

Are there specific sources of information that will aid one in understanding the various major and some of the minor publishers? The act of "learning the publishing world" seems overwhelmingly businesslike. I flounder here.

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What are the most influential business-savvy things to learn about the publishing world?

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Printing is not publishing. If publicity worked any less well or less often no one would bother with it at all. And don't be an idiot with money. Treat every nickel as if it were the last you're ever going to get.

And how much do you actually HAVE to know versus what an agent handles for you?

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You don't have to know anything more than who the good agents are. And you have to read widely (but you're doing that anyway, right?) You ought to know enough to know if the agent is screwing you over.

Only curious as I still haven't got a clue about the folks who buy and sell my work. (I suspect I should fix this.)

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The readers buy your work. The rest is interesting, but not entirely necessary.

I want to weigh in on "talent."

It seems to me that talent is the ability to accurately predict the effect your writing will have on a reader. Is a particular chapter supposed to break your heart over the protagonist's unrequited love? Is it supposed to be a thrilling scene of a confidence scheme gone wrong? Do (most) readers read it that way?

That's talent. And the more subtle and complex the reactions you can create, the more talented you're perceived to be.

I strongly suspect that talent is thought of as a natural ability because some people have a natural affinity to language and a knack for picking up on social give and take. But this is definitely something a writer can learn.

IMO, anyway.

And that Tarzan, Dick and Jane story was fantastic! I only wish I'd thought of it.

A Day On The Planet

I just finished my story for this project. Thanks for recommending it Uncle Jim. It's the first thing I have written in 6 years. I posted it on SYW if anyone is interested. I would love some crits. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154570

I just finished my story for this project.

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Go, you! To be a writer, write.

James D. Macdonald said:

The Pathetic Fallacy is assigning human emotions to inanimate objects (e.g. the angry clouds).

I'm suggesting making all the details point in one direction (e.g. the green light on the pier in East Egg in The Great Gatsby, as opposed to a white light, a red light, or not mentioning a light at all.)

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A-ha. That makes sense. Thank you for clearing that up!


As for talent... What I think is, nothing that so encourages continued practice as the pleasure of competence and success. We get that positive feedback quicker and more often in those fields in which we've got "talent." But that makes talent a shortcut, not a requirement; I believe we can succeed at anything at all. And eventually the head-start of talent runs out and we have to work just as hard as anyone else to keep moving.

"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it."

If talent starts you part-way up the ladder, remember that the ladder is infinitely high.

James D. Macdonald said:

Doyle chimes in: "Purple prose is what you get when you mix red prose and blue prose."

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Just the answer I was looking for. I have the feeling purple, or whatever color suits the taste, prose and writing to be published depend greatly on the genre. I could see where it would fit into romance or hard-boiled detective novels. It might not have much of a place in historical fiction, but small smatterings could work in the thriller/horror market. My opinion, of course.

As always, what works works.

James D. Macdonald said:

The person with preternaturally good eyesight may find it easier to become a marksman. This is good. But it is not sufficient.

Did someone start half-way up the ladder? Excellent! But that doesn't mean that climbing is unnecessary.

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And while climbing is half the battle, it can be lots of fun, as well.

Talent surely starts you halfway up the ladder and it still takes work to get all the way up there, and if you're not careful, you may fall. But some people are just so darn good at climbing the ladder that by the time the other folks are on the third rung, they'd be on the 18th already.

Some people are just smarter, more intuitive, have better ability to learn and excel, etc. etc. Blame it on genetics or whatever, but life isn't fair.

Still, like Michael Chabon said, there are three things that determine success: talent, luck, and discipline. You only have control over discipline, and hope you have the other two.

Hey Jim,

In the last pass through my manuscript I removed 296 adverbs!
It's amazing how often the womenfolk in my book cried quietly or wept silently.

euclid said:

It's amazing how often the womenfolk in my book cried quietly or wept silently.

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Which leads me to wonder why your womenfolk have to cry or weep so often...

Ha ha

Perle_Rare said:

Which leads me to wonder why your womenfolk have to cry or weep so often...

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You'll just have to read the book when (if) it comes out!