Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

smsarber · Oct 7, 2009

That is a great pearl. I used to try and wrap my head around writing a character who was even just well above average (not necessarily "Greatest") in a believable fashion. I know a good deal about playing guitar; I've played for more than twenty years. I am not the "Greatest" (CLAPTON). I could, however, possibly write a character who was the Greatest Guitarist in The World. I know enough of the terminology to make it convincing. But then, a guitarist doesn't ever have to speak. That's a whole different animal from Uncle Jim's example of the World's Greatest Orator (For some reason, makes me think of Roosevelt).

Chris Grey · Oct 8, 2009

For some reason, you bring to mind a song called "Tribute":

This is not The Greatest Song in the World
No, this is just a tribute

It's relatively easy to write about music being great, and I suppose it's possible to sing about a song being great, but is it possible to write about The Greatest Writing in the World?

Yes.

"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.
He took one look at her and said something totally profound. Silence fell over the room, to be broken only by a single, persistent clap. The other diners rose in applause.
The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.

I know, I know, I shoulda put that in Share Your Work.

smsarber · Oct 8, 2009

Did you follow the link to Uncle Jim's post, Chris? The point was if you write about (the example was) the greatest orator in the world you don't want to be writing speeches for the character, lest you really irritate some readers who will say, "Well, that's just crap." (My paraphrasing.)

Here's the link to the post referred to.

The Lonely One · Oct 8, 2009

smsarber said:
Did you follow the link to Uncle Jim's post, Chris? The point was if you write about (the example was) the greatest orator in the world you don't want to be writing speeches for the character, lest you really irritate some readers who will say, "Well, that's just crap." (My paraphrasing.)

Here's the link to the post referred to.

Maybe I'm daft but idn't dat what he did?

smsarber · Oct 8, 2009

No. The point of the lesson is that if you are writing for "The Greatest Orator in the World" don't try to write the speeches said orator is pontificating. Now, what Chris seemed to be getting at was that you can write about him: Yes, you can. But not the speeches. And the real lesson, in my opinion, is that you must watch what you claim in your writing. That's why I used guitar playing in my example. I could write about a great guitarist because I know the terminolgy, and can voice the nuances of playing a great solo. But no one can hear my character play the guitar. With a speaker you would be reading the words, so it could be putting your work in a precarious predictament.

But then, what the hell do I know?

smsarber · Oct 9, 2009

It's like Quentin Terentino said about the Ezekiel passage from "Pulp Fiction." He said rewriting and trying to improve on a Biblical passage is rough work (paraphrasing again--I didn't feel like getting out the dvd and finding that part in the Bonus Features). As a Christian I didn't like the fact that he rewrote something from the Bible, but as a fan of the movie, I liked it. And it will forever be one the most quoted passages of all time. Sometimes, when writing, whether it's screenplay or novel, you will have the opportunity to write something that will truly stand the test of time. So don't cut corners, don't settle... write the hell out of your work, and if you're proud of it, stand on it.

jinkang · Oct 9, 2009

Perhaps it may not apply, but I was reading "Self editing for fiction writers" yesterday.

There, the authors commented on a sex scene from the Gone With the Wind....where the whole passage leading to a night of hot, steamy sex is described in hot steamy details...but the actual 'deed' was skipped...with the main cast waking up afterwards.

It left everything to the reader's imagination.

Likewise, if you were to write something about this orator, I think you can get away with building up the scenes but show only the reactions of the crowd (or the orator) AFTER s/he has given the speech.

Readers will fill in the blank better than you ever will.

lucidzfl · Oct 9, 2009

I get the word said being the word said. The one time I deviate is with "replied".

Is that bad?

ETA: I suppose you could make the case that of course its a fucking reply, the reader just read the previous sentence...

I read something interesting that said "he said, she said" only serves the purpose of identifying the speaker in case the dialog doesn't make it obvious.

Is that generally true?

smsarber · Oct 9, 2009

jinkang said:
Perhaps it may not apply, but I was reading "Self editing for fiction writers" yesterday.

There, the authors commented on a sex scene from the Gone With the Wind....where the whole passage leading to a night of hot, steamy sex is described in hot steamy details...but the actual 'deed' was skipped...with the main cast waking up afterwards.

It left everything to the reader's imagination.

Likewise, if you were to write something about this orator, I think you can get away with building up the scenes but show only the reactions of the crowd (or the orator) AFTER s/he has given the speech.

Readers will fill in the blank better than you ever will.

The orator is only an example. If you look at UJ's original post, that is really the point--leave it to the reader's imagination. He says if you write about the world's greatest orator don't try to recreate the orator's speeches unless you really are the world's greatest orator, because you will fall short.

Chris Grey · Oct 9, 2009

smsarber said:
Did you follow the link to Uncle Jim's post, Chris? The point was if you write about (the example was) the greatest orator in the world you don't want to be writing speeches for the character, lest you really irritate some readers who will say, "Well, that's just crap." (My paraphrasing.)

Here's the link to the post referred to.

I didn't follow the link. I read it the first time it was posted.

My post might make more sense if you read this article.

Thank you for your support.

Krintar · Oct 9, 2009

jinkang said:
Likewise, if you were to write something about this orator, I think you can get away with building up the scenes but show only the reactions of the crowd (or the orator) AFTER s/he has given the speech.

Readers will fill in the blank better than you ever will.

See: Noodle Incident.

jinkang · Oct 10, 2009

Hi Uncle Jim (and others),

Could you give me few pointers on POV?

In particular, I'm hoping to show the transition of several different scenes where I start off with an omniscient pov...and slowly transition into a third person limited.

For instance, this is how I outlined:

Scene 1 - omniscient pov of main character
Scene 2 - third person pov of a view point character
Scene 3 - omniscient pov (slowly moving into third person pov) of main character
Scene 4 - third person pov of a view point character
...etc
Scene 20 - third person pov of main character

Scenes are short as I'm writing a short story, and I'm using scene breaker (#) to ensure readers are not confused...hopefully. (Of course, I wouldn't be trying this if I weren't writing a short story. I do think short stories are the medium to experiement and learn.)

I think I can manage the beginning and the end, but I'm a little concerned about the middle parts where I should balance the omniscient pov and third person in the same scene.

So far in omniscient pov scenes, I've introduced dialogues and progressively limited the information that the main character would not be aware of.

But at times, I feel omniscient pov and third-person pov are more or less the same...

Any guidance would be appreciated, from anyone.

The Lonely One · Oct 10, 2009

smsarber said:
The orator is only an example. If you look at UJ's original post, that is really the point--leave it to the reader's imagination. He says if you write about the world's greatest orator don't try to recreate the orator's speeches unless you really are the world's greatest orator, because you will fall short.

But in the user's example, doesn't it just say "the orator said his speech and everyone clapped"? Isn't that not the same as having the orator actually say it? It still leaves that mystery as to what was said. It could still technically be anything, and thus, could be the greatest thing ever.

I guess I'm not getting it. It's not okay to even mention that the orator DOES speak? You're supposed to leave him mute?

smsarber · Oct 10, 2009

That was what I said--I agreed with that. The point was not to RECREATE the person's speeches.

smsarber · Oct 10, 2009

jinkang said:
Hi Uncle Jim (and others),

Could you give me few pointers on POV?

In particular, I'm hoping to show the transition of several different scenes where I start off with an omniscient pov...and slowly transition into a third person limited.

For instance, this is how I outlined:

Scene 1 - omniscient pov of main character
Scene 2 - third person pov of a view point character
Scene 3 - omniscient pov (slowly moving into third person pov) of main character
Scene 4 - third person pov of a view point character
...etc
Scene 20 - third person pov of main character

Scenes are short as I'm writing a short story, and I'm using scene breaker (#) to ensure readers are not confused...hopefully. (Of course, I wouldn't be trying this if I weren't writing a short story. I do think short stories are the medium to experiement and learn.)

I think I can manage the beginning and the end, but I'm a little concerned about the middle parts where I should balance the omniscient pov and third person in the same scene.

So far in omniscient pov scenes, I've introduced dialogues and progressively limited the information that the main character would not be aware of.

But at times, I feel omniscient pov and third-person pov are more or less the same...

Any guidance would be appreciated, from anyone.

Why would you even want to try something like that? It seems that even with line breaks it will be confusing. Just my opinion.

James D. Macdonald · Oct 10, 2009

lucidzfl said:
I get the word said being the word said. The one time I deviate is with "replied".

Is that bad?

No, it isn't bad.

Neither are other "said" words bad, in and of themselves. But they are like spices: Too many will make the dish inedible.

jinkang said:
Any guidance would be appreciated, from anyone.

You ask me a question I can't answer. The only way to know is to write the book. If it works, you'll know. Contrariwise if it doesn't work, you'll know.

The Lonely One · Oct 10, 2009

Chris Grey said:
"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.
He took one look at her and said something totally profound. Silence fell over the room, to be broken only by a single, persistent clap. The other diners rose in applause.
The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.

I guess I don't see how "said something totally profound" is recreating a speech.

I think you're right, I'm missing something.

Is the point not to have a scene where the orator speaks, even if it's not directly referenced? To me, saying "said something totally profound" is no harder to believe than actually calling the person the "greatest orator in the world." those two seem to be one in the same kind of expectation of the reader.

I don't think I would have trouble believing the greatest orator in the world "said something profound," assuming I already believe the first part.

Now, if Chris had said "The orator said, Yes, I'll have the salmon, but no lemon, so help me" we'd all be like wtf mate I would have had the steak, medium well. What a crappy orator with bad dining choices.

I read the end of Jim's post and still don't get how Chris's post here happens to be "recreating" the oration.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable but I really don't understand.

smsarber · Oct 10, 2009

Lonely One, it was never said that in Chris's post it was recreating a speech. Please, for the love of God, go back to the link and read Uncle Jim's post again. Maybe that will clear it up for you.

Chris's post was in response to my previous post, that could be the missing link. Hope this clears it up.

The Lonely One · Oct 10, 2009

never mind. I reread your rep point. I get it.

*hugs thread.

jinkang · Oct 11, 2009

Hope I'm not beating a dead horse. If I'm, I'm blaming my ignorance. And uncle!

Chris Grey said:
"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.
He took one look at her and said something totally profound. Silence fell over the room, to be broken only by a single, persistent clap. The other diners rose in applause.
The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.

I think smsarber already mentioned this but below is more akin to what I was thinking:

---------
"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.

There it was again. He had the same look--call it twirls in his eyes, madness, or whatever--he always had that look when she had visited his speeches.

His mouth opened and words poured out. His voice was clear and eloquent. And the words cascaded with meanings so profound, she froze for a moment.

When he finished, silence fell over the room. A single persistent clap broke that. Then applause followed.

The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.
-------

I'm practicing to put more 'show' then tell.

Also, trying to drag that part (tension) where he is talking...without creating it word by word...since I'm not good at speeches.

Then again, what do I know? Until my first sale, I'm only an amateur. And even after the sale, I can't guarantee all my words will be words of wisdom.

jinkang · Oct 11, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
You ask me a question I can't answer. The only way to know is to write the book. If it works, you'll know. Contrariwise if it doesn't work, you'll know.

I'm working on it, Uncle Jim.

I'll find out for myself and hopefully, learn from it.

[update]
Just got my Logical Chess book...but I think I'll need to finish up the Elements of Style first.

Anything I should focus on while reading the Logical Chess, anyone?

IceCreamEmpress · Oct 12, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Neither are other "said" words bad, in and of themselves.

Except for "ejaculated". Don't use "ejaculated" as a speech tag, because your readers' inner 12-year-olds will never stop giggling.

Also, I hate it when people use verbs that don't actually describe approaches to utterance as speech tags. "'No, thanks,' he disdained."

The Lonely One · Oct 12, 2009

IceCreamEmpress said:
Except for "ejaculated". Don't use "ejaculated" as a speech tag, because your readers' inner 12-year-olds will never stop giggling.

Unless your character is a talking penis who is explaining the ins and outs of life to a 12-year-old.

No wait. Don't write that book.

James D. Macdonald · Oct 12, 2009

jinkang said:
Anything I should focus on while reading the Logical Chess, anyone?

The concept of positional play, and the concept of understanding the why of doing what you do.

James D. Macdonald · Oct 12, 2009

IceCreamEmpress said:
Also, I hate it when people use verbs that don't actually describe approaches to utterance as speech tags. "'No, thanks,' he disdained."

"Blue socks don't go with a yellow suit," Fred welded.

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