The Newer Never-Ending PublishAmerica / America Star Books Thread

Scribhneoir said:

I would add the willfully ignorant. They do Google and find the warnings, but choose to go with PA anyway.

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That, too.

I think Gravity is referring to the new crop of posters we're seeing these days and not to the PA authors who have seen the light and realize what PA is.
Several years ago the information about PA was not as prolific as it is now.
Many fine authors were getting caught in the trap, along with the riff-raff.
Not so much now.

The times, they are a'changing. Yes, yes.

merrihiatt said:

It bears repeating that some people did do research. I even went so far as to contact two PA authors to get their personal opinion/experience with PA. They loved PA.

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You certainly are not illiterate or unintelligent Merri, and I agree that not all those taken in by PA can be placed in the groups mentioned.

But what you describe here is not proper research. Clearly it couldn't have been, since it lead you to sign with them. I know you're aware of that, but we wouldn't want someone reading this and thinking that that's how you research a publisher.

The best way to check that publisher is legit is to walk into a store and see if you can find their books there, and/or if they've published something that you have personally read and enjoyed (or heard that your friends have enjoyed).

If people claim to have researched PA and gone with them anyway, they either didn't actually research or they fall in the "willfully ignorant" group.

One PA author, interviewed recently on local TV, said that three publishers were interested in her book, but she thought PA was her best choice.

PVish said:

One PA author, interviewed recently on local TV, said that three publishers were interested in her book, but she thought PA was her best choice.

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Who knows? It may have been...we don't know who the other two are. There are worse (i.e. even more money-grabbing and more expensive to the victim) rip-offs than PA.

Now, if either of those were a commercial publisher...yeah, then she definitely made a suboptimal choice.

I'd bet my hair that she felt that way because the other two asked for money up front.

Which PA totally doesn't.

Cause they're not a vanity press, you see.

TheTinCat said:

The best way to check that publisher is legit is to walk into a store and see if you can find their books there, and/or if they've published something that you have personally read and enjoyed (or heard that your friends have enjoyed).

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I agree that this is a great beginning. I also think a Google search can be very helpful (which, as noted above, I did do, but somehow missed AW, although I did spend many hours visiting/reading other sites and trying to assess what the truth of the situation was).

I agree with TheTinCat, Merri. You're literate and internet savvy. But IMO it's not enough to be internet savvy to stay out of scam's way - one needs to be at least somewhat publishing savvy as well.

Otherwise, the defenses of PA might come off as reasonable. "PA lives up to its contract", for instance - that sounds very positive until you realize just how little the contract allows PA to do in comparison to what real publishers do for their authors.

merrihiatt said:

I don't fit into any of your three categories. I'm not elderly. I am internet savvy. I am functionally literate. I really don't appreciate someone trying to lump me into three simplistic categories.

It bears repeating that some people did do research. I even went so far as to contact two PA authors to get their personal opinion/experience with PA. They loved PA.

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I did the same thing last year with two loyalists who had moved away from PA and were now either self-publishing or with iUniverse. Just to see what they would tell an unpublished writer who contacted them through their website saying, "hi, I noticed you had a book published, is there any publisher you could recommend to me?"

Guess what, both of them suggested I try PA.

Either they didn't want to admit they might have made any kind of mistake by going with PA, or it was a "misery loves company" thing.

Okay, one more thing... as a new writer, you don't always know what questions to ask a publisher.

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True.

I have to say, being with an actual publisher is a sharp contrast to the PA experience. When I see authors on the PAMB not knowing who to contact and asking each other questions, I think how sad it is that they don't have editors to go to, editors with actual names and email addresses. But I wouldn't have realized that before I had an editor myself.

I didn't find AW until I was through with PA.
But the damage was already done, so I've devoted my time since to helping spread the word.
Seeing new people avoid their trap or extricate themselves after the fact makes it all worthwhile.

TheTinCat said:

If people claim to have researched PA and gone with them anyway, they either didn't actually research or they fall in the "willfully ignorant" group.

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I'm really missing something here. What is the point of making categories and placing PA authors in them? How is it helpful to the would-be PA author?

How does labeling a would-be PA author as willfully ignorant or functionally illiterate help them understand PA's business model/practices?

CatSlave said:

I didn't find AW until I was through with PA.
But the damage was already done, so I've devoted my time since to helping spread the word.
Seeing new people avoid their trap makes it all worthwhile.

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I am so thankful for people like you, CatSlave. When I did find AW and began to ask the deeper questions about PA (the ones I didn't know to ask in the beginning), it was the personal stories that people shared here that made me realize I had made a mistake in signing with PA.

I can never say thank you enough to everyone who has shared their personal stories and insight, and to those who did not sign with PA and know how the publishing industry works and are willing to share that information with those who are less informed.

IMO it's not enough to be internet savvy to stay out of scam's way - one needs to be at least somewhat publishing savvy as well.

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I agree wholeheartedly, QoS!

The PA website is meticulously crafted to dupe even the most astute reader.
It's no wonder so many good people got sucked in, but it is a shame.

categories

merrihiatt said:

I don't fit into any of your three categories. I'm not elderly. I am internet savvy. I am functionally literate. I really don't appreciate someone trying to lump me into three simplistic categories.

I agree with you completely, Merri. I also did some PA research, including asking a PA writer if he was satisfied with them (and he was). Apparently I didn't do enough research, because if I had dug deeper into their website, I would have noticed how much they charge for their books and would have recognized that their customers are the authors themselves.

I place some of the blame for signing with PA on myself for not doing enough PA research, but the simple fact remains that PA's website, especially the first page, is deceitful and misleading.

As a side note, Merri, I've read many of your posts and I think you're an excellent writer.

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dksyooper said:

I place some of the blame for signing with PA on myself for not doing enough PA research, but the simple fact remains that PA's website, especially the first page, is deceitful and misleading.

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It's not just the website. It's the discussion board as well, which is carefully monitored and pruned so that the vast majority of comments are positive.

And this isn't as much of a concern now, but in the past PA had loyalists who explained to newbies that PA was a legitimate publisher and that its critics didn't know what they were talking about. A few of them came off as quite convincing, too.

It's a slick operation.

merrihiatt said:

I'm really missing something here. What is the point of making categories and placing PA authors in them? How is it helpful to the would-be PA author?

How does labeling a would-be PA author as willfully ignorant or functionally illiterate help them understand PA's business model/practices?

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I think the point is to help us come to grips with how it happens. After so many years, it is dismaying to see so many still fall for PA's line. One yearns for understanding.

--Ken

PVish said:

One PA author, interviewed recently on local TV, said that three publishers were interested in her book, but she thought PA was her best choice.

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The others might have been Dorrance and Vantage.

--Ken

PA deliberately misleads people with their website's wording and when an author asks questions, they are often led back to the website for answers (I know I was). Unfortunately, the website doesn't address the questions that really matter

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Spot on, Merri.

PublishAmerica presents itself as being exactly the same as houses like Tor, Baen, Penguin, etc.

For those who think one must pay to publish they have the "we want your book, not your money" chant.

When you Google for "book publishers," there they are, number four on the page.

When you click on the link they look friendly, open, and enthusiastic, not at all scary.

In large font near the top is a link, "How to submit your book". VERY easy! Look, people are selling books and getting movies made from them. They're Christian-friendly, they're patriotic!

When I clicked on Random House's link it looks scary and demanding, and the writer's guidelines are not easy to find.

Ditto for the Harper/Collins website.

The other links on the Google page are to vanity sites or other sites that want upfront money from writers.

But PA looks and IS approachable.

It's scary simple and terribly effective.

The vast majority of those who go to PA really don't know the right questions, don't expect a supposedly professional outfit to LIE to them, and PA makes it VERY easy to submit work, unlike those other places.

A triple threat.

All we can keep doing is to continue to warn the newbies here, on our blogs, other forums, Tweets, whatever.

We do that, and we continue to WELCOME in newbies and ex-PA writers.

It is having an impact or Merri and a bunch of others wouldn't be here. Goodness knows how many others we haven't heard from were steered away from PA by their warnings.

Sadly there are those who slip through despite best efforts, and we DO love to organize things into categories.

So my apologies for letting my temper show. It is better aimed at PA, not the writers, but dang it all, I DO get annoyed and frustrated.

If someone still high on the PA Kool-ade informs me they are a Published Author (trust me, you can hear the caps) I am often hard-pressed to act in a civil and professional manner. With practice, I've learned to smile, nod, and move on...usually to the bookstore manager to ask "What the hell were you thinking???"

merrihiatt said:

I also read many, many articles about PA. Most claimed that the rabble rousers were folks who had not read and understood their contracts or folks who thought PA was going to promote and market their book (two things PA expressly states they do not do).

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Merri, I agree with everything you said in your post except the above. But where does PA's web site tell you that they don't promote or market your book? It seems to me that their "Facts and Figures" page is designed to hide that fact and to in fact imply just the opposite. For example, Fact #3 talks about PA authors appearing in various media, conveniently omitting the fact that, to the extent that it may be true, PA had absolutely nothing to do with it. Fact #4 says PA helps set up book signings. Fact #5 says PA is "NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them." (And see Fact #9.) Fact #6 says PA is a "traditional" publisher that wants the author's book, not their money, and even talks about PA paying expenses for "marketing."

Of course, I now know PA's "Facts and Figures" page is full of lies and half-truths, but unfortunately I learned it after I had signed on with them. I admit I was foolish and naive, but that does not change the fact that I was misled, deceived, and lied to. PA was not up front about the fact that they do no marketing or promotion of their books. Had I known that, I never would have signed the contract.

Aside from that one point, your post is right on!!!

I certainly didn't mean to cause a rift.

But since (not if; plainly I did) I offended some of the good folks here, I apologize.

I don't think a rift was caused. It was just a good reminder to me of why I post things here and what my intention is (to enlighten people who may be thinking about signing with PA about PA's business model/practices). Sometimes our passion leads us away from our main goal. No hard feelings on my part.

Don, I think the reason I knew that PA wasn't going to promote/market my book was from the articles I read and from the two PA authors I contacted. I thought I had read it on the PA website, but I'm guessing you are right and the wording was vague at best. I'll have to go check it out and see if I can find anything that is written clearly about it.

ETA: I found this in section 3 of the FAQ page on the PA website (underlining and red text mine). It leads an author to believe that if they promote and market their work, their books will find their way onto a bookstore shelf. Highly misleading, especially for a POD book, but the last line is pretty clear.

Now, a word of caution is in order. Bookstore availability is not necessarily the same as bookstore shelf display. For a book to be stocked by a bookstore, someone high in the hierarchy must decide to order it. Typically, it's not the store manager who makes such decisions, unless he runs an independent store. Larger chains such as Waldenbooks, Barnes & Noble, and Borders have "buyers" who select which titles are to be stocked. Oftentimes, they want to see some noise happening before they move.

Local bookstores like to be able to demonstrate that there is demand for a book. If they can show demand, their superiors (those "buyers") may permit them to stock. And since a book on display helps create demand, a ripple effect begins. This is why it is so important that authors turn themselves into the center of all local attention. Face it, you're no John Grisham or Nora Roberts, not yet. So you must not only beat the drum, but be the drum major as well. All successful marketing begins at home.

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There was another comment made that was incredibly misleading. Section number 5 of the FAQ page:

Question: What are my obligations as an author?
Answer: An author’s obligations are few, since he/she already contributes the lion’s part by having written the book. We are very conscious of that fact. No book was written overnight. It has cost most authors a year or longer to write it, and often many more years to let the creative process well up.
We are also conscious of the fact that seeing your book in print is a life-defining moment. It is something an author never forgets for the rest of their lives. It is something to enjoy and celebrate. Therefore, the obligations should be minimal.
The author has really only one obligation: to provide us with the completed final-version manuscript. We’ll take it from there.
Does this mean that the author must sit on his/her hands after signing the contract? Not exactly. We expect the author to actively promote the book whenever and wherever possible.

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If you want to sell books to readers, you'll have to do a lot more than simply provide PA with a completed manuscript.

I'd guess that most PA writers have some very positive qualities that hurt them in the case of PA. They seem to be very optimistic and trusting and believe that other people are basically good. All excellent traits. Unfortunately, in business situations you need to be a bit suspicious. Often deeply suspicious.

I think you've made a heck of a good point Merri, and the number one thing that strikes me is that on the surface, is that a lot of people out there (myself included, though I've thankfully learned enough to do insane amounts of research) are trusting people. When you look up a publishing company, particularly if you are a new writer who doesn't know a whole lot, you're going to be apt to believe what someone says about themselves and make certain assumptions about what they will and will not do because they're a publishing company.

It makes perfect sense to me that you never thought to ask if a book was in stores. I never would have asked that until I came here because why on earth wouldn't it be? I mean, that's what publishing companies do, they publish books that go to stores.

There are an awful lot of things like that about this outfit. And it doesn't help that if you do ask those questions, their website answers them all in a reassuring way. They claim to do marketing, they claim your book will be available, etc. etc. Now, I'd guess that the majority of people out there looking for a store or company believe said store/company when they say what they are. A lot of us, if not most, don't go out there from the standpoint of, "This is a scam" and then look to be proven wrong. We go out with the outlook that something is legit.

And from what I would have known (as an English major who took writing classes and learned about this stuff in college and at writing conferences), a scam is someone who asks you to pay. PA doesn't, so they would have probably been put into the category of "probably not a scam."

Now, I like to think that had I gone to their website I would have been turned off by enough of what I saw there to not even consider it twice, but honestly, I don't know. I'm not a stupid or delusional person. I'm someone who does research as well so hopefully I would have come across sites like this and learned about them, and I'm not usually the type to take a chance if there is a lot of negativity.

I think there are some people who fit into the categories mentioned, but a lot more who just don't know enough about publishing, who do a basic amount of research and think they understand enough, and then get caught up in scams like this because they're not starting from the "It's a scam" standpoint. If you don't, it's really easy to see how people get sucked in. PA banks on people's trust and they betray that trust at every turn.

How does labeling a would-be PA author as willfully ignorant or functionally illiterate help them understand PA's business model/practices?

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I personally used the "willfully ignorant" term to underline the fact that thorough, sufficient research cannot lead to signing with PA - unless people choose to ignore what they find. Even if they are somehow fine with getting no marketing, no bookstore placement, no editing, overpriced books etc., the sheer lack of professionalism that is so widely reported should deter people.

It's important to stress to anyone lurking that if they think they've researched PA and still want to go with them, they either haven't researched sufficiently (and it's not that easy to research sufficiently if you don't know very much about publishing), or they're purposely ignoring what they found.

ETA: I know some examples have been mentioned of people who only want their single author copy in their hands, never intend to buy more copies, and don't have the skills to set up their document for LuLu. Though I still doubt that they will have thoroughly researched and understood PA beforehand, it might not matter that much - and those few cases would probably not be included in the "rule" above.

I still don't think that applies to everyone. Mostly because before I came here, I honest to goodness thought I knew quite a bit about this industry. I'd done my homework, submitted stuff ten years ago, thought I knew what I had to know. While I might not have fallen for PA, I come across threads about small presses that are doomed from the start that I probably actually would have gone with. That isn't willful ignorance, it's a matter of I would have thought I knew what I was doing when I didn't.

Yes, there are people who sign on because the look at the evidence then choose not to believe it. We've certainly seen evidence of it here. But I also don't think that can apply to everyone. You have the people who just don't realize what they don't know. You have people who find answers or ask questions and get great, reassuring emails from Miranda telling her about why they're fantastic (we've seen those, too, and those are pretty damn reassuring). They aren't obviously a scam in the traditional sense, so even if you had a degree of understanding, unless you knew that there existed places like this out there, why would you assume the worst? Especially if you didn't find a thread like this and all of your concerns were being redirected.

Maybe you even come across their forum without realizing that they delete everything they dislike (who would assume that unless you saw it happen?). Now, I might have recognized because I knew enough about the industry that something wasn't right about the things people posted there (and the grammar levels), but let's say you were someone who had just written your first book, and you basically know nothing about writing or publishing. You might not recognize the clues. You're looking at messages from actual customers saying "This place is great," compared to perhaps a few dissenters, or people who may not even be customers. The people there tell you that the customers love it and that the only people who have a problem are the outsiders, and if what you're seeing supports that, it's easy to see how a person could fall for it. I doubt most people would even think to ask if anyone had ever gotten a royalty check. Aside from being rude, why wouldn't they have? Again, it goes back to our expectations.

I'm not denying that some people aren't in denial, or aren't willfully ignorant. I just think it's unfair to group people into that category when they might have had the best intentions. PA tricks a lot of people because it plays to their expectations. It's a classic con. They carefully word everything to make it appear like they're saying one thing when they really mean the opposite. They put on a kind face and only show you the positive. We shouldn't assume the negative, or assume that everyone is in denial or willfully ignorant because had we not found this place, how many of us might something like this have happened to? If not PA, something similar? Or how many of us might have just made a stupid decision and gone with an agent with no experience because we didn't go better?

Also, I know that other writing forums exist out there that don't have the same quality of advice this one does. Places that are essentially run by amateurs that spout the same tired misinformation that a lot of the scam companies do--it's impossible to get published if you're a new author, the only way to get anywhere is to self-publish, etc. It's just as possible that people go looking for information and end up somewhere like that as ending up here.