The Newer Never-Ending PublishAmerica / America Star Books Thread

Don, if availability is all you want then you can put your poems up on a website, then blog, Tweet, and otherwise network to get people to stop in and visit and read your work there.

I guarantee you MORE people will read your work that way than will stumble across it on PA's website however much you promote it on this and other forums.

But if you want your poems to sell, then you will get a better deal with Lulu.com or CreateSpace on Amazon.

I would suggest you put in direct links to the book. Just mentioning a title isn't enough to get people to go looking for it. You have to make it EASY for them to find!

I looked up your book on Amazon, first with your name and the title, and it popped right up. When I tried your name alone, there were several other writers with the same name who were clearly not you. I had to go to the PA site, get a book title, then put it into Amazon's search engine + your name to get your works to finally come up.

I've had the same difficulty finding other PA titles on Amazon, needing to put in the author + title to get anywhere.

Here are some numbers for you to consider:

Your new book is 73 pages for 14.95 + shipping.

I did a quick search for single author/modern/poetry collections in trade size editions.

The first to pop up was 160 pages selling for 12.95 + shipping.

Forget content, on price alone, that poet has you beat.

It's got reviews from Publisher's Weekly and Booklist. On the same page is a sliding list with "Customers who bought this item also bought..." which your page, sadly, does not have. It's with a small press, but they pay advances, better than any PA offers.

Until today I never heard of you or the other poet, but given the numbers and other details if I did choose to buy a book of poetry, I would pick up the lesser priced, thicker book.

Figure that other people will do the same.

I checked things on Lulu for you.

A 73-page trade size with perfect binding and color cover costs $5.96 to print. Sell it for 7.00 and your royalty is $1.06.

What's your royalty rate with PA? Remember they do not pay royalties on books the authors buy.

If you arrange things right with Lulu, you can upload your book, sell it from their website and link from yours as a book in hand or an e-book download. Cost to you: nothing. You may want to register copyright (35.00 online) and get an ISBN number (10 for 250.00 at Bowker).

Measure those costs against how much you've spent buying copies of your own works from PA.

I'm betting that even with copyright and ISBN costs added to your overhead a book you print through Lulu will cost less than any effort PA tries to sell back to you.

The distribution to stores is the same as at PA: zero. Your book will be on the Lulu site, your site, and Amazon.

PA is not recognized as a professional publishing credit.

Neither is Lulu, so you don't lose anything there, though when it comes down to it, Lulu garners more respect than PA. Most everyone in the publishing industry is well aware of PA's reputation. Such as it is.

What you GAIN is full control over your work. It's not snarled up in a 7-year contract.


I crunched some numbers at Morris Publishing, a printer that I considered using for a niche self-pub project of my own.

There, 100 copies of a 70-80 page trade size costs 3.55 per copy + .30 shipping per copy to the writer. Shipping is 3.69 cheaper than what PA charges you. It's a no-brainer.

Again, availability is not the same as sales.

I also have to put in my word to assure you that paying people to read one's works is NOT how you succeed in as a writer.

Giving one's stuff away--well, I've been guilty of that. I often give away some of the two dozen free author copies my publishers send me.

I hope this helps.

I'm still p***ed off about that 'donate to Haiti' scam.

Example: you order 15 copies, we print 30. We ship your 15 copies to you,
and the same week we ship an additional 15 books to your local Borders store, at NO cost to the bookstore.
Plus $15 goes to Haiti!

So PublishAmerica, in an unprecedented stroke of generosity, claims they will donate $1 to Haiti for EACH book you buy.
I'm speechless with admiration.

Well, we all know those books will not get to that store, and they'll probably stick the 'free' 15 copies somewhere in the total cost. And not a dime of any of it will ever reach Haiti.

C'mon, you think Miranda and the other two bozos would part with a single cent for something like charity? Please. The only place any of that money goes is straight into the bank accounts of the Scam Masters. My my, an auditor would have a field day with them...

Are there special rules involved with a business donating to charity? Like, do they have to make it known when they do something like this which charity and how much was donated, etc? Or show receipts of it?

I'm with you, M.R.J. I highly doubt that they're actually following through with any of it, and I think it falls into the category of outright fraud.

I'd just hope that the authors see this and instead of falling for it, realize that the people suffering in Haiti would be a lot better off if the author donated the $300 they would have spent on books to a reputable charity themselves.

Want to know what Borders thinks of the PA offer?

Call them and ask:

If you prefer to speak with us by phone, please call our customer service center at 800.770.7811.
Customers outside of the U.S. may contact us at 615.287.1704.

Our hours are:
Monday - Friday 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM CST (Central Standard Time)
Saturday and Sunday 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM CST (Central Standard Time)

You may write us at:
Borders Customer Service
PO Box 7002
LaVergne, TN 37086

Is it illegal to claim donations to a charity which you never do, especially when you've collected money with the expressed purpose of doing so? That would be fraud, wouldn't it?

It has to be. I'm going to have to go look up fraud later. At the very least (unless they're actually following through, and even then it's questionable imo) all of this is false advertisement, isn't it?

I wish people would start asking questions, requiring receipts, etc. With something like this in particular. If I was a PA author, I'd be insisting on knowing which charity and having a receipt or something.

There has to be someone these messages can be sent to. What about the press? I know my hometown had a special news crew that focused specifically on rip-offs like this, and it's the kind of story they would certainly be willing to do. Isn't there some way to do a letter writing campaign to some papers or news stations and at least try to get some press involved? If they can get a good story out of it, then maybe more people will start coming forward and there might be more pressure to get legal action involved if there is fraud going on.

I don't like Lulu and I don't like paying for the printing of my book up front. I really don't care about the few dollars I lose in royalties. I would never make much money on this.

I refuse to send out my manuscripts and wait a year for an uncertain outcome. My experience with publishers is not a happy one. At least wth PA the outcome is certain and predictable.

But I will consult whatever information is in here and I keep looking for a better deal.

Self righteousness is the most addicting drug on earth. You seem to be pushers in here.

Then plainly a "warnings" thread is of no use to you. May you be happy.

Don Schaeffer:
I would never make much money on this

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You could if you submitted your poetry to periodicals and magazines. Admittedly, you wouldn't make a huge amount of money, but you'd get it up front and probably more than by publishing with PA. You wouldn't need to be concerned about dodgy royalty statements either.

Don Schaeffer:
I refuse to send out my manuscripts and wait a year for an uncertain outcome.

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That's your right. However that is the unfortunate way in which the publishing business works and patience can bring its own rewards.

Don Schaeffer:
My experience with publishers is not a happy one.

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May I ask who you have been published with apart from PA?

Don Schaeffer:
At least wth PA the outcome is certain and predictable.

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That's true. They will continue to screw you for money, throwing you a few dollars in return that have been earned from the sweat of your labour (firstly in producing the manuscript, secondly in getting out there to sell it).

Once they think they've got all they're going to get from you, they'll drop you until the next time their quotas are looking a little low and then they'll be back in touch again.

Only PA wins.

Don Schaeffer:
But I will consult whatever information is in here and I keep looking for a better deal.

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Great - I hope you stick around. I know that the Poetry Forum here is pretty lively and very welcoming.

Don Schaeffer:
Self righteousness is the most addicting drug on earth. You seem to be pushers in here.

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I'm sorry if you don't like the message you're being told here, but there are so many people who fall into PA's clutches and as a result give up on writing and publishing that it's a message that needs to be repeated and repeated.

Your writing is or will be worth than a poxy dollar. It's definitely worth more than the crappy attitude that PA spunks over its authors whenever it feels like it.

Reading communications like their Haiti email makes me physically ill and it should disgust any right-minded person. What type of company feels that it can use a horrific disaster like that earthquake to make more cash from its authors?

MM

What I can't figure out is whether those "We'll donate your book to____________" cut and paste offers are working or not working. They're coming too fast for it to be somewhere in the middle.

Either there's a deluge of people taking them up on the offer when it first comes, so they want as many as possible as fast as possible, or there's a tiny percentage and they're trying to make it up in bulk offers.

Don Schaeffer said:

I don't like paying for the printing of my book up front.

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I'm sorry, I'm confused. If you don't like paying for the printing of your book up front, why are you doing it anyway?

PA won't print anyone's book unless someone pays up front.

I loved the artwork on your covers, by the way.

Don Schaeffer said:

Self righteousness is the most addicting drug on earth. You seem to be pushers in here.

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Our goal in the B&BC forum is is to keep people from getting screwed over. PA is a bad deal any way you slice it. If you'd rather not spend the time and effort working toward commercial publication, we're at least trying to keep you from losing money on a vanity printing outfit. A bad vanity printing outfit at that. At least with other places you can have control of the output and price and keep the printing rights for yourself.

PA provides the illusion their authors are for-really-real published, and it can be tough to admit to yourself the truth. But PA is not a publisher, and they have the worst reputation in the industry. The truth doesn't change just because we don't like the message.

A great number of people here on AW are involved in publishing in one capacity or another, from editors to publishers to published writers, and can speak from experience. Others are former PA customers and can tell you first hand what they went through, from the elation of being told their book is getting published to the feeling of being let down when they receive their first royalty check to the humiliation of their first Tone Letter and being banned from the PAMB to the relief of getting released from their contracts.

Take what you need and leave the rest. Everybody here has something of value to say, nobody more important than the other. If you feel PA is the best option for you, Don, then we truly hope you get something from the experience. If you're beginning to question their deal, however, we still hope you get something from the experience and aren't here to prove how much better we are. The posts here, especially in the PA wings, can be a bit blunt because sometimes it's best to be direct.

Don Schaeffer said:

. . . You seem to be pushers in here.

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No one is forced to read these threads, or to heed the warnings.

Frankly, I am mystified as to why you bothered.

BTW, if your area has an active poetry community with coffee-house readings and the like, you might do best to become involved in that. (Midtown Sacramento, for example, has such a community.) And if you've not sent your work to literary magazines and other venues that publish poetry (mostly not for pay, though), then you might want to consider that. Odds are poor, but the odds are zero if you don't make the attempt.

--Ken

Welcome to AW, Don.

The PA threads are but a small part of AW. I hope you will take the time to visit the poetry forum where you may find a better solution to your publishing needs.

Best of luck with your future writing endeavors.

~brianm~

CaoPaux said:

<tangent> Can't speak to others, of course, but I prefer to buy chapbooks after readings. The hand-made/collectible quality enhances the whole poetry-from-the-heart vibe for me. </tangent>

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Great gift idea!
Thanks for sharing.

Don Schaeffer said:

I refuse to send out my manuscripts and wait a year for an uncertain outcome.

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But that's what professional writers do. If it gets rejected, we put on our game face and send out more stuff. It is the same for poets as it is for novelists.

I've been selling books since the 80s and while it's a smack in the face to have one rejected, it happens. It's just part of the job. It is not a rejection of me; it just means the publisher thinks they can't make money from it.

PA accepts everything, certain they will make money off the author, which they do.

My experience with publishers is not a happy one. At least wth PA the outcome is certain and predictable.

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Indeed. The costs are in the back end of things, higher than you would pay to a printer, and they will make more money off you than you will from your books.

If availability is what you want, then keep subbing to other sites and post on your own. You can set up a Paypal icon for donations from readers. You can set up a feedback forum of your own to get applause from readers. I guarantee you will have more readers there than you will ever have with PA.

If you're willing to buy copies from PA at their overly high prices, then you'll save money self-printing at Kinkos.

Caopaux's chapbook idea is GREAT! I've bought such items after readings and gotten them signed by the writer.

But I will consult whatever information is in here and I keep looking for a better deal.

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Great! We want you here on AW. This is the best forum for writers on the whole Web.

Please always check out the names of other publishers you look at here and use Preditors and Editors. Google their name + "scam". If there are warnings against them, then pay heed.

No one posts lightly here. This is a community of professionals and those striving to be pros. The mods see to it there are no silly flame wars or trolls, but they don't delete posts the way they do at PA. If you don't like something, your opinion is welcomed even if some disagree with it.

Self righteousness is the most addicting drug on earth. You seem to be pushers in here.

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What you see as self-righteousness is desperation to help out another writer. We've seen the damage PA can do.

Many here have had horrible experiences with PA, and feel the same about it as you do about whatever publishers you dealt with in the past. PA has lied to them, insulted them, banned them from the message boards, and kicked them to the curb, yet continues to send emails urging them to "stock up" and have "copies on hand".

You might be another Maya Anjelou or Jack Kerouac, but no one will ever know with all your work placed at PA. They are a tar pit, what goes in never comes out.

You've been given some excellent advice about other venues to consider. I hope you'll find other forums on AW to check out. We have a thriving poets community where you can see what others are doing to get their works noticed. Drop in, make some new friends.


If PA really wanted to help Haiti, instead of themselves, then they could simply donate money without making their writers go through hoops first.

They could set up where the income of all books sold on a certain day go to a charity. Include the production price, not just profit, or a lousy dollar.

Buzzy Multi-Media is doing that. All money from their t-shirt sales made this Friday goes to Doctors Without Borders.

They're donating 100%, not a buck on each shirt sold and keeping the rest, but 100%, donating their overhead costs on those shirts.

They've named a specific, well-known charity the money will go to, and better believe this donation will be properly recorded on their books.

But I would not trust PA to ever do a straight count. They've got a piss-poor record for that.

Just so we're clear Miranda, Larry and Willy--you make me SICK! Wave the flag and praise Jesus all you like, but you are human garbage.

I wish to heaven your karmic debt would come up and bite you in the arse tomorrow, but I'd settle for the Maryland AG or the IRS gifting you with an attentive visitation.

Absolutely Write about PA

Momento Mori said:

I'm sorry if you don't like the message you're being told here, but there are so many people who fall into PA's clutches and as a result give up on writing and publishing that it's a message that needs to be repeated and repeated.MM

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This is the honest truth. I stepped in PA in 2008 and since then I've been hesitant to send my book out for a real critical review because I had to do all my own editing. Needless to say, it made me doubt my skills and there's a shelved sequel to my original novel that's probably never going to see the light of day because of it.

I will eat my keyboard if they actually donate any money to the Haiti relief effort. I really will. Because I just can't see them having that kind of ethics and compassion considering how they treat their authors.

Well, Don, you don't want to go through the waiting and uncertainty that is a part of all legitimate publishing. Which leaves you with self-publishing, in which your book is a sure thing because you are deciding what gets published. But you don't want to spend seven dollars or whatever a copy with Lulu or another legit self-publisher, so you expect your friends and loved ones to pay twenty bucks to PublishAmerica. Sounds like you're enriching PA and spending other people's money to burnish the illusion that you're commercially published. You're telling us you're a poet unwilling to take the emotional risk of putting your work out there?

By the way, I did recently spend $25 on a small book of poetry by Jack Gilbert. I imagine he climbed the mountain the old-fashioned, slow, uncertain way.

Kenneth K said:

This is the honest truth. I stepped in PA in 2008 and since then I've been hesitant to send my book out for a real critical review because I had to do all my own editing. Needless to say, it made me doubt my skills and there's a shelved sequel to my original novel that's probably never going to see the light of day because of it.

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Welcome to AW! May I suggest you visit the Share Your Work area? Please do not give up.

Don Schaeffer said:

My experience with publishers is not a happy one. At least wth PA the outcome is certain and predictable.

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Yes, it's certain that your books will be priced high enough to dissuade most readers from buying them. If, to you, that is worth PA's speed of printing and PA's shifting of fees to the back end, then I wish you the best of luck.

Self righteousness is the most addicting drug on earth. You seem to be pushers in here.

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I believe that when the facts clearly support a position (that PA is a bad deal for serious writers), it's a bit disingenuous to hem and haw and pretend uncertainty. Nor does that inspire confidence in writers who might themselves have been unsure about said position.