Refusing evacuation?

icerose

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090902/ap_on_re_us/us_wildifires_holdouts

Here's the link. It's talking about people who refuse to evacuate the fire zones in California.

Here's my opinion. People who refuse evacuation orders should not be rescued until the danger is over.

They accepted the danger, stayed there, putting their lives in danger. They don't want to move, fine, officals should get to them when it's safe and over with.

I hate it when firefighters and other rescue workers have to put their lives on the line for idiots. They want to take the risks? Let them, but that doesn't mean our rescuers should be put in danger because of it.

Maybe I'm just feeling less than compassionate today because of life issues.
 

veinglory

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I think ultimately the firefighters would choose to get them rather than let them die, but perhaps it should be voluntary for them....
 

Williebee

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Actually, I'm right there with you on that one.

Although, if there were young children, I'd probably be in favor of taking them out of harm's way, whether the adults wanted to come with or not.

It's like a helmet law for motorcycles. Far as I'm concerned, if you/I don't want to wear one, fine. IF you/I get a head injury, then you/I may very well die of a head injury.

We make our choices, we take our chances, we live our lives, and offer no one else the blame.
 

Lyv

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I'm pretty sure during Hurricane Andrew in Florida, first responders did not come out to mandatory evacuation areas while the storm passed through. An apartment building or condo on the beach burned to the ground, far north of where Andrew did any actual damage. It was in a mandatory evacuation area and someone who stayed behind knocked over a candle or Sterno. I remember seeing news footage of people coming home to find all their possessions burned and their home a pile of smoking rubble.
 

Williebee

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I remember seeing news footage of people coming home to find all their possessions burned and their home a pile of smoking rubble.

There's an interesting twist on it I hadn't thought about. People suing the city or county for not forcing these evacuations, and thereby protecting THEIR homes.

hmm.
 

Fran

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Everything's so litigious these days, I'm surprised they weren't issued with papers to sign to say they wouldn't sue.

If I stayed behind, I wouldn't expect any help. If somebody turned up, I can't honestly say I'd send them away. But if I was told to evacuate, I can't think of any reason I would remain in my home. Pick up the photos, the guitars, any pets and my laptop (it's new, and I really like it) and go.

Maybe some of them are uninsured, and want to stay behind to protect their possessions. It wouldn't be a good enough reason for me, though.
 

Seaclusion

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One of the reasons people don't evacuate during hurricanes is that when the storm passes and there's some damage, the authorities will not let you back in to retrieve, fix, or prevent further damage to your property. Since they cannot force someone to evacuate but can keep them from their property after the disaster, some people stay to protect their property from further damage and repair their their property afterward.

Richard
 

Lyv

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I've always wanted to go back and look up the laws. I don't remember anyone suing and I bet they would have. If I'm remembering back correctly, we knew ahead of time that first responders wouldn't dispatched to mandatory evacuation areas. We kept waiting to see if my mother's house was going to be one. She swore she wasn't going to leave, which was going to leave my sister's and me a hard choice. I think we used, "But if someone gets hurt and you call 911 no one will come!" as an argument.

I felt terrible for the people who lost everything due to one person's actions. But I was glad to know our first responders weren't expected to go into an area that should be free of people during a hurricane.
 

talkwrite

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Here in Texas they just passed a law for the entire Texas coastal area, that anyone refusing to evacuate can be arrested. I laughed because, as an evacuee from Hurricane Rita, I shared the highway for 11 hours with a couple of buses of....inmates evacuated from the jails.
Just to let you know that legislators count on other states that pass laws to help them get the same or similar laws passed.
 

Seaclusion

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But I was glad to know our first responders weren't expected to go into an area that should be free of people during a hurricane.


You are right. They do not respond. If the area is only accessed by a bridge, the bridge is usually shut down once the wind reaches a certain speed. No one is allowed to cross including police. If you do not evacuate and stay behind, there's no getting on or off until the storm passes.

Richard
 

Maryn

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I'm too lazy to try to verify this, but I dimly recall that people who had refused to evacuate before some well-anticipated volcano (hurricane?) were billed for the rescue. I'm good with that.

Maryn, whose memory sucks
 

icerose

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I'm too lazy to try to verify this, but I dimly recall that people who had refused to evacuate before some well-anticipated volcano (hurricane?) were billed for the rescue. I'm good with that.

Maryn, whose memory sucks

I'm good with that too.

I think this just reminds me a lot of Katrina. I know there were people who didn't evacuate because they couldn't, but there were too many who stayed by choice and didn't even follow the basic advice of bring 3 days of supplies and then bitched about not having food or water for hmm, let's see, 3 days!
 

JoNightshade

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Too many of our firefighters in SoCal die just battling fires. We've already lost a couple in this series of blazes. It infuriates me that these people think they can ignore all the warnings and then call for help when they're about to be burned to death. And the firefighters will try to save them. They will put their lives at risk for idiots like this because that's what kind of people they are.

The only way to discourage this kind of behavior is to have a no-excuses policy. If you ignore mandatory evacuation, you don't get help. Period.

Also, WTF is WRONG with these people? You'd risk your life - and the lives of others - for your house? For THINGS? Houses can be rebuilt. Money can be earned again. And if it can't, so frickin what? It's JUST MONEY. Life is infinitely more precious.
 

JoNightshade

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I'm too lazy to try to verify this, but I dimly recall that people who had refused to evacuate before some well-anticipated volcano (hurricane?) were billed for the rescue. I'm good with that.

But it isn't just about money. It's about rescue workers and firefighters putting their lives on the line. You can't really put a dollar amount on something like that.
 

Snowstorm

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I'm with ya. I was a volunteer wildland firefighter. Every one of us in our neck of the woods agreed the houses/stuff are expendable--we are not. If someone chooses to ignore a mandatory evacuation, then they can suffer the consequences. If I were the fire chief, I would NEVER put one of my firefighters in harm's way (more than they/we already are) just to rescue morons who may be now surrounded by the flames.
 

backslashbaby

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Yep, my brother does river rescues.

Way too many people make stupid decisions that put rescuers into harm's way when they are explicitly told why not to make that decision.

So, I'm not even cool wth charging them for the rescue. Particularly if they stayed to protect things - and would risk the lives of the rescuers over their things!

Nope. Tough love, I'm afraid, but they can live with their own stubborn decisions.
 

Don

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I'm with the majority here. Mandatory evacuation should mean "you're on your own if you're stupid enough to stay." But it should also mean "you can make your way back in whenever you choose to do so, even if we don't yet recommend it." That warning about "you're on your own" would also apply to those folks, of course.
 

cethklein

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Great topic. As most everyone said, mandatory evacuation means "get the hell out". This goes back to Katrina. Bush may have been a horrid president on most fronts, but his handling of Katrina was not far off. He offered them buses and Ray Nagin sat in a luxury suite and watched them float away. Bush did nothing wrong, he did his part. The idiot mayor and governor were the culprits but they exploited the overall incompetence of the local populace and in Nagin's casek, got re-elected because of it.

I think the whole situation caused me and many others to lose any ability to sympathize with the people of New Orleans. Their own mayor did nothing yet they followed him like sheep when he passed the buck to Bush. (And I haven't even gotten into the fact Nagin is also an open racist).

The people down there were told to leave. They were given time and resources to do so. Most stayed because their leaders didn't give a damn. And some instead decided it was worth sticking around so they could have a shot at some free plasma TVs. Then they whined when all hell broke loose. I pity the ones who got stranded because of Nagin. The rest of them, fuck em'. I hope they're happy with their tvs

Nagin's re-election is the single biggest display of the outright stupidity of this nation.

And I also agree about the ones who CHOOSE to stay putting rescuers in danger. If a person refuses to leave, to hell with them. Let them figure things out on their own. Rescuers don't need to risk their lives for these half-wits.
 

backslashbaby

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Ooooh, I'd better mention that I feel very differently about Katrina, overall. Yes, there were many people who did just this, and I do not think that they should have been evacuated during the storm or just after. Past that, and for the other folks, you lose me, respectfully.

One of my friends did ride out Katrina, actually, in Pass Christian, MS. We all said "Go!!" but she had her reasons based on how high her house was and the highest hurricane water historically, and her pets and business. Needless to say, she went through hell that night and those days after.

I have to admit it can be hard to predict what a natural disaster will do. I say go, always. I didn't agree with her decision.

But in cases where something is more clear-cut, I really despise folks who ignore the warnings. [No snowmobiles in this zone; thin ice; river too high/fast for people, etc]
 

mscelina

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Hyperbole Alert Activated.

Wow, that alarm is screeching louder than necessary. ;)

Seriously, though--it's a failing of way too many people to value their things, their inanimate objects, their investments--over the lives of other people. I think Katrina really changed the outlook of a lot of people along the hurricane-plagued Gulf Coast. When I lived in the Keys, there were so many people who talked a big game about not evacuating if a hurricane was headed for us. (Not me--they said 'evacuate' when Hurricane Andrew was approaching and my ass was already on the road to the mainland. Ironically, everything in Key West was fine) I think after what happened in Louisiana and Mississippi, even the die-hard Conch Republic folks woud think twice about staying on an island where the highest point was three feet above sea level.
 

backslashbaby

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die-hard Conch Republic folks

Exactly.

Hey, the bluff was 30 ft tall, to be fair to my pal. Unfortunately the wall of water was nearly 40' a half-mile inland :(
 

benbradley

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One of the reasons people don't evacuate during hurricanes is that when the storm passes and there's some damage, the authorities will not let you back in to retrieve, fix, or prevent further damage to your property.Since they cannot force someone to evacuate but can keep them from their property after the disaster, some people stay to protect their property from further damage and repair their their property afterward.

Richard
And it could be really tough being stopped by a police-manned roadblock back to your home if (to dream up an emotional but plausible example) the local TV news is showing looters running free in YOUR neighborhood.

It's arguable that THAT action by authorities causes deaths by more people staying behind the next time there's an evacuation and a big one comes around. What was it Dubya tried to say? "Fool me once..."
 

icerose

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Ooooh, I'd better mention that I feel very differently about Katrina, overall. Yes, there were many people who did just this, and I do not think that they should have been evacuated during the storm or just after. Past that, and for the other folks, you lose me, respectfully.


And that's why I carefully excluded those people who couldn't evacuate.

But people who showed up at the superdome with a candy bar and a book? Or mothers who showed up with no diapers or formula for their infants then are wailing and crying over their infants who starved to death.

My compassion only goes so far. If someone tells me it'll be three days before help can come and I need to take those supplies with me, I'm taking those supplies. I'm not leaving my children's lives up to chance.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
Another reason people stay behind is because pets aren't allowed in shelters.