Your thoughts on the F-bomb

Libbie · Aug 29, 2009

A single use of "fuck," in the context of a very angry reference to some adulterous sex: Apt to connect a modern-day reader to the emotions in the scene, or likely to yank the reader out of ancient Egypt and distract them from the story?

Discuss!

scarletpeaches · Aug 29, 2009

Completely unoffended by the use of the word - as you know from our emails.

But. In a historical novel it'd make me go, "Huh? Did they really say that in Ancient Egyptland?"

mscelina · Aug 29, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Completely unoffended by the use of the word - as you know from our emails.

But. In a historical novel it'd make me go, "Huh? Did they really say that in Ancient Egyptland?"

It depends. If it was a historical novel set among the Puritans of New England, then no. In ancient Egypt? It would knock me right out of the story and probably straight to another book. Interesting that you brought this up; I just had this conversation with one of my writers. Every era has oaths that are specific to it. Unless you want to break your reader's willing suspension of disbelief, I'd avoid it.

thethinker42 · Aug 29, 2009

Libbie said:
A single use of "fuck," in the context of a very angry reference to some adulterous sex: Apt to connect a modern-day reader to the emotions in the scene, or likely to yank the reader out of ancient Egypt and distract them from the story?

Discuss!

"Fuck" doesn't offend me, obviously (you know this, given my judicious use of the same in my writing and everyday speech).

Also, having read the chapter in question, I didn't find it jarring. Given the context, it fit, IMHO.

Puma · Aug 29, 2009

There have been several other discussions of the F bomb on this forum with the result of a "house divided". Some of us say it's absolutely inappropriate in historicals given it's rise in use in the last 50 years. Others argue that the F bomb or other similar word has been in use in certain situtations since man started speaking. Consequently, I don't think you're going to get a clear cut answer.

Another way to think about it - if someone near and dear to you or someone you respected read your manuscript - would you be embarrassed they found out you used the F bomb?

The bottom line, I believe, is that we each have to make our own decisions about it's use depending on the story we're writing, the appropriateness of use, and our personal situations. I use the F bomb in contemporary novels - but I won't get anywhere close to it in an historical. Puma

Adam · Aug 29, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Completely unoffended by the use of the word - as you know from our emails.

But. In a historical novel it'd make me go, "Huh? Did they really say that in Ancient Egyptland?"

Exactleh what SP said.

scarletpeaches · Aug 29, 2009

Puma said:
Another way to think about it - if someone near and dear to you or someone you respected read your manuscript - would you be embarrassed they found out you used the F bomb?

This is the least important thing to worry about when writing a novel.

If my nearest and dearest were offended by the language in my books, they would cease to be either near or dear to me.

Authenticity over 'trying not to cause offence' every time.

The story is king, not my maiden aunt.

thethinker42 · Aug 29, 2009

Puma said:
Another way to think about it - if someone near and dear to you or someone you respected read your manuscript - would you be embarrassed they found out you used the F bomb?

To each their own on this one. I don't take that into consideration AT ALL when I write, otherwise it cripples my ability to tell the story the way it is meant to be told. I don't seek to offend, but I also don't seek to not offend.

I'm a shameless writer. I write the story as it needs to be told, and if someone looks down on me because of it, so be it. I used to worry about what other people might think of it or of me, and it crippled me as a writer.

As I said, to each their own, but I personally don't even take that into consideration.

CACTUSWENDY · Aug 29, 2009

In Egypt in what ever time period you are writing...I would use what would be considered appropriate for it. If it is in the here and now...go for it. If it is a dated piece, then find another type of word that would be considered in the same vein.

The time element would be key. IMHO

Folofop · Aug 29, 2009

Personally I wouldn't use f***.

I'd substitute for another word, maybe even just a made up one. I'm sure in the context of the dialogue/scene the reader would understand what was going on.

cooeedownunder · Aug 29, 2009

I also personally think that if the word was not in use at that time, then no, it shouldn't be used.

I would ask myself if the word bothers myself in the context I have used it. (Yes, I often talk to myself)

I think if you are asking this question, it must not site quite right with yourself, or otherwise why ask the question?

As for whether it would distract me from the writing in the context of that period - more than likely. I would again be talking to myself, and asking myself why the writer felt the need to throw it out there? To connect the reader? But by trying to force a connection you may very well lose the connection.

In IMHO I think at the end of the day you need to stay true to your charachters.

DeleyanLee · Aug 29, 2009

Libbie said:
A single use of "fuck," in the context of a very angry reference to some adulterous sex: Apt to connect a modern-day reader to the emotions in the scene, or likely to yank the reader out of ancient Egypt and distract them from the story?

Discuss!

Ancient Egypt was a very liberal minded culture, and sex wasn't a big deal. Even though "fuck" is an Anglo-Saxon word and not Egyptian, you're writing in English for a modern audience. I mean, the vast majority of words we think of as Egyptian actually aren't (they're mostly Greek), so it wouldn't bother me as long as the context and the character saying it fits.

What I'm finding interesting is the adulterous sex. Given the Egyptian attitudes about sex, marriage, fidelity, divorce and all, I'm curious what you're doing with it.

Adam · Aug 29, 2009

DeleyanLee said:
What I'm finding interesting is the adulterous sex. Given the Egyptian attitudes about sex, marriage, fidelity, divorce and all, I'm curious what you're doing with it.

She's doing very good things with it. It totally works, IMO.

(I've read it. Yes I'm that privileged.

)

Libbie · Aug 29, 2009

Puma said:
Another way to think about it - if someone near and dear to you or someone you respected read your manuscript - would you be embarrassed they found out you used the F bomb?

No, not even remotely. I am not a person who is bothered in the least by profanity, and those who are near and dear to me know this about me. I freely drop the F-bomb when it's warranted around my mom and grandma (my grandma, by the way, uses it more than I do. I think that's where I got it from.) But you do bring up a good point, for those writers who are sensitive to such things.

The bottom line, I believe, is that we each have to make our own decisions about it's use depending on the story we're writing, the appropriateness of use, and our personal situations. I use the F bomb in contemporary novels - but I won't get anywhere close to it in an historical. Puma

My only problem with my particular F-bomb situation is that I can't think of a better way for my antagonist to accuse my MC of adultery. It's in the heat of a very intense fight, and the accusation sets off my MC's decision to do something very drastic, which changes the course of all my characters' lives. I wanted the instant of accusation to be shocking and foul, but not jarring to the point of ripping the reader out of the setting.

I haven't yet come up with a better way to word it. "Sleeping with" doesn't have the offensive shock of "fucking," and its syllables are all too soft and airy-fairy for an enraged scream. If the Egyptians had a great word for the boinkety-boink that would do the job, I haven't found it in my two years of research.

I'm having a hard time here, wondering whether I should keep it or cut it. This might be one of those calls I have to let a professional editor make. I just don't know.

scarletpeaches · Aug 29, 2009

"I saw him put his Uraeus of Lust in your secret canopic love-jar!"

Libbie · Aug 29, 2009

cooeedownunder said:
I also personally think that if the word was not in use at that time, then no, it shouldn't be used.

True, and I do see your point. But even the word "Pharaoh" wasn't in use at the time. Pharaoh is a French bastardization of p'ro, which was what the later dynasties called their kings. In the time period during which my book takes place, the word for king was netjer. But I'm choosing to use Pharaoh, because that's what will be familiar to modern readers.

You can see why I'm having this F-ing quandary.

I would ask myself if the word bothers myself in the context I have used it. (Yes, I often talk to myself)

I think if you are asking this question, it must not site quite right with yourself, or otherwise why ask the question?

I actually am quite pleased with the use of the word. I think it fits the scene perfectly. It definitely accomplishes the job I need it to do. But I've received some feedback that it was distracting to some of my beta readers. I'm in the process of editing, and wondering whether I should axe it or not.

Libbie · Aug 29, 2009

DeleyanLee said:
What I'm finding interesting is the adulterous sex. Given the Egyptian attitudes about sex, marriage, fidelity, divorce and all, I'm curious what you're doing with it.

My understanding through my research was that everybody was free to do the nasty with whomever they pleased, except the queens. They appeared to take some pains to disguise any affairs they had, probably because of the religious roles kings and queens had. I mean, if they were supposed to represent Amun and Mut, it would be kind of scandalous for the "gods" to go around doing their stewards just because they got a little lonely.

Thanks for your input!

Libbie · Aug 29, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
"I saw him put his Uraeus of Lust in your secret canopic love-jar!"

That'd work. O____O

scarletpeaches · Aug 29, 2009

You're welcome.

Puma · Aug 29, 2009

If that's what works best for you - then use it. Remember the tittering over the one damn in Gone with the Wind. And as you say - an editor may choose to cut it - but they also might choose to cut whatever substitute you put in.

As far as my statement about nearest and dearest - I'm not sure how many of you who have no problem with the F bomb in your writing have children - I do. It's kind of embarrassing to be confronted by your daughter who's horrified because Mom put words in her writing she never uses in her speech. There went my pedestal. Puma

scarletpeaches · Aug 29, 2009

I don't have children. Don't want them.

BUT if I did, it would be my responsibility to stop them reading my books if I didn't want them to. If they got a hold of my novels, well there's worse things can happen to kids than discovering "Mummy wrote the word fuck!"

Besides which, the characters in my books are not me. Let's assume I didn't swear, but my characters did - I wouldn't have a problem with that because I write fiction, not memoirs. I'm me, my characters are my characters.

Kinda hard to write erotica without using the F-word anyway. I wouldn't want children reading it. Does that mean I shouldn't write it at all? I treat the F-word the same way I treat sex. Some things ain't fer kids, but it's not my job to stop children reading my work.

Wayne K · Aug 29, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Completely unoffended by the use of the word - as you know from our emails.

But. In a historical novel it'd make me go, "Huh? Did they really say that in Ancient Egyptland?"

How did I know I'd find you here?

Egyptian or not, I love the word. I love profanity.

benbradley · Aug 29, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Completely unoffended by the use of the word - as you know from our emails.

But. In a historical novel it'd make me go, "Huh? Did they really say that in Ancient Egyptland?"

This brings up the question "Did they use ANY of the English words we use today in Ancient Egyptland?" I really don't think so. In that respect the "F" word isn't any different from any other word in the novel. There's the unwritten and unspoken assumption that such a "novel" would be a translation of the "original story."

I suppose if the difference between languages is perceived as a problem, the author could pierce this unspoken assumption and interject something as "the translator," saying the modern words used are of course not direct word-for-word translations of the language used in ancient Egypt, but the words and sentences are a "best fit" to modern language as far as the translator understands the other language. But I dunno if something like that would be a good idea.

scarletpeaches · Aug 29, 2009

benbradley said:
This brings up the question "Did they use ANY of the English words we use today in Ancient Egyptland?" I really don't think so. In that respect the "F" word isn't any different from any other word in the novel. There's the unwritten and unspoken assumption that such a "novel" would be a translation of the "original story."

Good point. Never looked at it that way before.

I just had it in my head that 'fuck' became common centuries later so it would strike me as an anachronism on a par with seeing Elvis drive by in a Cadillac shouting, "Tutankhamun sucks cheesy donkey balls, yo!"

KTC · Aug 29, 2009

Libbie said:
A single use of "fuck," in the context of a very angry reference to some adulterous sex: Apt to connect a modern-day reader to the emotions in the scene, or likely to yank the reader out of ancient Egypt and distract them from the story?

Discuss!

i thought fuck came into being around the 15th century. but i could be wrong. i would wonder what it's doing out of context.

Your thoughts on the F-bomb

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