All Things Middle Grade

jtrylch13

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Me too. One of my favorite parts of outlining is when I actually get pretty close to nailing the "moment" on the dot. Normally for me it's like "Chapter 2-Make sure the power in the house goes out" And when the power actually went out in the house in chapter 2, I'm like a little school kid who just guessed the correct amount of jelly beans in the estimation jar.

:)
 

starbeam

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I have a question for all you MG writers out there. I've seen that the average MG book is 20,000-40,000 words in length. My question is, where do agents really draw the line on length? How long is too long for upper MG? Would 75,000 words be too many?
 

Ferret

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I have a question for all you MG writers out there. I've seen that the average MG book is 20,000-40,000 words in length. My question is, where do agents really draw the line on length? How long is too long for upper MG? Would 75,000 words be too many?


It depends on the genre and the exact age group. For fantasy, 75,000 is probably okay, although getting it closer to 50,000 or 60,000 would be even better. For contemporary, especially light, funny contemporary, that seems much too long.
 

Sage

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Is 20K really okay for MG? I was told by some agents that Fireflies was too short at 30K (but I also got a ton of requests with that word count in the query).

IaPT is 42K. Can I feel safe with that word count? It's contemp fantasy
 

Morrell

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Is 20K really okay for MG? I was told by some agents that Fireflies was too short at 30K (but I also got a ton of requests with that word count in the query).

IaPT is 42K. Can I feel safe with that word count? It's contemp fantasy

42K sounds perfect, Sage. At a conference last spring, I talked with several agents about my contemporary fantasy, which was originally 52,000. One referred to it as "meaty middle grade", but in a positive way. Another said it was too long. A third said it was just right for MG contemporary fantasy. When I secured representation, I was asked to cut it down to 45,000.

I agree that 20,000 is awfully short.
 

Ferret

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Is 20K really okay for MG? I was told by some agents that Fireflies was too short at 30K (but I also got a ton of requests with that word count in the query).

IaPT is 42K. Can I feel safe with that word count? It's contemp fantasy


42K for contemporary fantasy sounds perfect.

20K is short, but I've noticed MG that short at renaissance learning, including some fantasy, which tends to be longer but isn't always. The Goosebumps books tend to be around 20k to 30k, although some are over or under that range.

It depends on so much: the genre, and the age group, the author's style.
 

Sage

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Ooh, the word count word from JennL. Perfect.

And thanks, everyone :)
 

starbeam

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Thank you for the info., guys! I can definitely find ways to cut down my MG fantasy a little. As I've said elsewhere, when I wrote it, I thought it was YA. Now I know better. :)
 

AnthonyPearson

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Hi all! I've decided to jump in and start writing my first ever MG story. Oh man, it's a mountain. Can I ask a few things about chapters?

I've started working on my outline and the framework might be 10 chapters at 2,500 to 3,000 words a chapter. Too long for a single chapter? Before I really get going I want to make sure I start off on the correct foot.

Today I was running a lunch bunch for 2nd graders (I'm an elementary school counselor) and one boy brought in a Goosebumps book. I flip through it and it's got about 20 chapters at 3 to 5 pages per. Where does Goosebumps fall in the realm of writing? Is it Young MG?

Thanks!
 

Smish

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I'd classify them as young MG, yes. They're a bit too long/advanced to be called chapter books, I think.

As for your chapters, they can be whatever length you like. And you can have chapters that are longer than others. I tend to have lots of chapters, with a new chapter after every completed scene, but that's just my preference. I would encourage you to lean more toward shorter chapters rather than longer, simply because it's easier for kids when there are natural stopping points.

:)Smish
 

Sage

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I would consider Goosebumps below MG, but...I'm not certain

ETA: NVM, Smish knows better than me
 

Smish

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No, it's simply my opinion, Sage.

And I agree with you. They aren't quite MG, but they are longer than the norm for chapter books. Honestly, I haven't read any Goosebumps books in a couple decades, so I don't remember them very well. ;)
 

AnthonyPearson

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hmmmm, tough call then. The boys at my school still tear through them like crazy. It's probably a trend related to my school, but it's like the kids love to trade and talk about which ones they've read. Reminds me of when I was a kid and read every Choose Your Own Adventure I could find.
 

Kitty Pryde

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I also think Goosebumps is lower MG. Chapter books are simpler and shorter I believe.

And I agree, 3000 word chapter is too long. It's nice to have a stopping place or reach the milestone of finishing many chapters. And it's nice to have baby-size cliffhangers!
 

AnthonyPearson

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I'd classify them as young MG, yes. They're a bit too long/advanced to be called chapter books, I think.

As for your chapters, they can be whatever length you like. And you can have chapters that are longer than others. I tend to have lots of chapters, with a new chapter after every completed scene, but that's just my preference. I would encourage you to lean more toward shorter chapters rather than longer, simply because it's easier for kids when there are natural stopping points.

:)Smish

That's a great suggestion. Hasn't someone somewhere said at some point--remember your reader? :)
 

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I felt like Goosebumps were a step down from YA when I was reading Fear Street. I don't think MG really existed back then, but many teen series at the time had their younger reader counterparts: Babysitters' Club Little Sister, Sweet Valley Twins (and Kids I think too), and Goosebumps were all things my sister was reading when I was reading BSC, SVH, and Fear Street, and she's three years younger. But when I was looking at Goosebumps in the stores this past year, they seemed so much smaller and younger than I remember my sister reading at the time.
 

Smish

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hmmmm, tough call then. The boys at my school still tear through them like crazy. It's probably a trend related to my school, but it's like the kids love to trade and talk about which ones they've read. Reminds me of when I was a kid and read every Choose Your Own Adventure I could find.

No, I think they're pretty popular among kids everywhere. But I'm not a teacher or a parent, so I haven't been exposed to them in ages. And I don't write anything similar to them, so I haven't read any for research purposes. And they're just not the sort of books I'm going to pick up for fun.
 

AnthonyPearson

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I also think Goosebumps is lower MG. Chapter books are simpler and shorter I believe.

And I agree, 3000 word chapter is too long. It's nice to have a stopping place or reach the milestone of finishing many chapters. And it's nice to have baby-size cliffhangers!

Thanks KP!

You all should be on the look out for a brain-picking session.

On a happy note, I'm glad that 3000 words is too long--it makes getting my first chapter done seem less daunting.
 

Smish

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Thanks KP!

You all should be on the look out for a brain-picking session.

On a happy note, I'm glad that 3000 words is too long--it makes getting my first chapter done seem less daunting.

Lots of writers don't even put chapters in until the second or third drafts. Makes it less daunting, so I've heard.

Unfortunately, I'm not one of those writers. :rolleyes:
 

AnthonyPearson

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Yeah, the goosebumps books all looked like they clocked in at 120-130 thin pages with some big font. For a 2nd grader though, I can only imagine it swells their reading confidence when they read a "big" book.
 

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Also (because I am taking everyone's MG issues and making them my own these days), I just had a chapter issue with my MG. My first chapter (out of 13) was a fifth of the book O_O Way too long. I was having problems splitting it up, though, for the very reason I put the first chapter break where it was. The book is based on the 12 days of Christmas gifts, and so every chapter was a gift (with the partridge and the pear tree split up to make 13). But for the original first chapter, I only had one gift that was a significant part of the chapter. I could split it up, but what could I call the 2nd half of the chapter without breaking the trend? And unfortunately for me, I couldn't just break it up and extend the new 2nd chapter to include the beginning of the original 2nd chapter because the chapter break was so clearly a chapter break, and there was no shift in POV or time to make a scene break possible there.

(I cheated to fix the problem)

The original break was about 8K in.
 

Smish

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Sage, could you have parts? And chapters within each part?

Day 1, chapters 1-5.
Day 2, chapters 1-3.
Etc.?