All Things Middle Grade

aus10phile

committed plantser
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,099
Reaction score
180
Location
Flyover country
Actually I think chapter length does matter especially for MG, and shorter chapters tend be preferred. Also that's exactly how I do chapters, I do them once I"m done, not as I go. So don't think you are doing something wrong doing it that way. We all have what works for us. I do agree that you should look less at word count and more at the stuff CheG recommended. That being said, I would hesitate having chapters too much longer than 2K.

Number of chapters though is kind of irrelevant. It's about the general pacing of the book. Does it feel stop and start having that many chapters? Does it flow? Does it get tedious waiting for the end of the chapter? That's all. My first book that was 80K had 44 chapters in it. I have 26 chapters in my latest MG that tops out at 47K :) (btw, both sold :) )

I know these are old posts, but thanks for these helpful comments about chapter lengths! I'm working on my first MG novel (unless you count the incredibly juvenile one I wrote when I was 13!), and this is something I've been wondering about.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Oh I'm glad they could be helpful!

Something else to keep in mind (as I re-read my comments) is the idea of "reluctant readers". This term refers not to kids who have actual issues with reading, like dyslexia etc. This refers to kids who are reading at their age level (or sometimes even beyond) but just don't enjoy reading. They'd prefer to watch TV or play a video game or whatever. I was one such reader growing up (and still am to a point), so I relate a fair bit to these kids. And one thing that really helps kids like that enjoy a book is a sense of accomplishment. A sense as well of fast pacing. And shorter chapters provide that for them. I think sometimes people want to write down to reluctant readers, try to simplify language etc, try to write a quick easy story. But that's not the thing I've discovered. Since these kids are capable of reading at their age level, the issue isn't "make it easier" but make it more entertaining.

And I believe pacing and chapter length has a great deal to do with achieving that end.

Now you don't have to write for reluctant readers at all. Many don't and that's perfectly fine. But I do think it's something to keep in mind. And I gotta say, there's nothing quite so wonderful as being told by a mother, "This is the first book he's ever put his video games down for." :)
 
Last edited:

aus10phile

committed plantser
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,099
Reaction score
180
Location
Flyover country
Something else to keep in mind (as I re-read my comments) is the idea of "reluctant readers". This term refers not to kids who have actual issues with reading, like dyslexia etc. This refers to kids who are reading at their age level (or sometimes even beyond) but just don't enjoy reading. They'd prefer to watch TV or play a video game or whatever.

This is my son! He's 7, but is reading a level or two above his grade level. But it still feels like work to him. He loves being read to and will listen to an audiobook for hours, though, so I've been reading a ton of MG books to him, which inspired me to write one. I'm hoping if my book doesn't please the agents, that at least it pleases him! :)

And my instinct has been to write much shorter chapters than I typically would for an adult novel. I think I'll try going with that for awhile, unless it starts to feel choppy. It does force you to have frequent hooks to keep reading, which I think would be helpful with the entertainment factor.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Absolutely! One of the suggestions my agent made before she was my agent (so for my revise and resubmit) was shorter chapters and cliffhangers. Though it was remarkably easy because all I had to do was chop my chapters down the middle and I achieved both :) .
 

CheG

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
1,121
Reaction score
80
Location
Oregon
Website
chegilson.blogspot.com
Absolutely! One of the suggestions my agent made before she was my agent (so for my revise and resubmit) was shorter chapters and cliffhangers. Though it was remarkably easy because all I had to do was chop my chapters down the middle and I achieved both :) .

OMG! That's such a good idea! I never thought of it before! Is it something you do in editing? Or do you just stop writing a chapter in the middle and start another one?
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
After that experience I became less married to my chapters. So that means that when I write a book, yes I put in chapter breaks where I for sure know I want one, but often I don't. So then I go back and decide where to put them in. I try to keep Dan Brown in mind. As in, cliffhangers absolutely get people to turn the pages, but a cliffhanger at the end of every chapter is enough to drive your readers crazy :) (he is great at his cliffhangers, but seriously, dude, not every chapter please!).

So that's what works for me but I don't really plot out every chapter and every moment as a writer. I think if you're the kind of person who likes to write by outline and really know what each chapter is about then you should write that way. And afterwards you can go through them and see if there are any you can cut down the middle. But generally yes, it's something I do in editing after the novel is complete.

ETA: I should add that sometimes splitting a chapter down the middle results in a weird ending to a chapter, like it doesn't read as if it was meant to be one (for obvious reasons). You shouldn't feel like you aren't allowed to now augment the new end of the chapter so that it works better. I mean sometimes you're lucky. Sometimes you've written something like, "And you wouldn't believe what happened next" and boom, perfect cliffhanger. But sometimes the cut best works at something less satisfying for a cliffhanger. Something like, "I got up and crossed the room." Or something. I dunno. The point is, look for a moment that would make a good cliffhanger-y chapter break, not necessarily for the perfect sentence. You can always add a couple sentences to make it work.
 
Last edited:

aus10phile

committed plantser
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,099
Reaction score
180
Location
Flyover country
And afterwards you can go through them and see if there are any you can cut down the middle. But generally yes, it's something I do in editing after the novel is complete.

I've actually done this on the fly some with the adult stuff I've written. I've started out a chapter thinking I'm going to end it at one point, but then midway through I write a line and realize, ​Oh! That would make a much stronger ending/hook. So I end up splitting it in two. It's hard for me to imagine writing an entire book without having the chapter breaks in mind in advance! I've heard of a lot of other people doing it this way, though.
 

grandma2isaac

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
2,755
Reaction score
443
Location
Warsaw, Indiana
would love if there were people still posting here. I have been writing a lot of different genres, probably due to the fact that I read different genres. The lower grade or mg story that I am nearly satisfied with combines a lot of the amazing things I watched my own children going through. I incorporated the childhood toys of my grandson to live the scenes. I am hoping to find someone to beta read it for me soon and give me some pointers.
 

CamJMcFadden

Coffee Fiend
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
Location
Melbourne, Australia
would love if there were people still posting here. I have been writing a lot of different genres, probably due to the fact that I read different genres. The lower grade or mg story that I am nearly satisfied with combines a lot of the amazing things I watched my own children going through. I incorporated the childhood toys of my grandson to live the scenes. I am hoping to find someone to beta read it for me soon and give me some pointers.

Seconded! I am (mostly) new to the forum and just stumbled upon this section. If there are other MG authors out there working on a project, I'd love to hear about it. With all the YA books going around, it's rare to find authors specifically focused on MG.
 

triceretops

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
14,060
Reaction score
2,755
Location
In a van down by the river
Website
guerrillawarfareforwriters.blogspot.com
I'm popping in here. I hope this thread is still active. Of course, I could read through the whole thing, but that would take time away from writing my upper middle grade, which I just started. I think I've watched every instructional on writing middle grade fiction extent. I also read some articles and books. I think I'm on the right track. This is my first attempt at MG. I've finished and published some YA, and had no trouble with it. I need to know the basic differences between MG and YA. I have four characters, ages, 13, 12, 12 and 11. I guess that could might qualify as lower YA or upper middle. My four kids take a portal to several fantasy lands and change the lifestyles of the inhabitants for positive purposes. That sounds more YA, I think. Anyway, I'll check out some posts here and see if I can learn anything.
 

ASeiple

Livin' la vida biblia
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
860
Reaction score
93
Location
Dayton, OH
Hey there! I'm a newbie author, looking to get into the middle grade market next year. I've published some superhero stuff before, but for a decidedly older audience. I've got a high fantasy MG manuscript draft done, it's just going through beta reading now. After that will come editing, and several rounds of queries.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Hi triceretops - honestly those ages and plot read really MG to me. What about it feels like it would be more YA?

Some thoughts without my having much info to go on: The big thing I suppose would be tone. There's more to MG than just age and subject matter. Do you want to post maybe the first chapter on SYW maybe? Also if it was YA you'd definitely have to age those characters up. Also while reading instruction manuals is great, I hope you are also reading recently published MG. There's no better set of instructions than reading what's out there right now.
 

playground

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
1,404
Reaction score
138
triceretops - I can't echo what Toothpaste said enough. You basically have to drown yourself in MG fiction to the point that you just know it when you see it. Think of it like learning a new language. When you are learning it you are trying to remember all the rules and your words and sentences come out clunky. But when you are fluent you just say things that might not be technically right but it sounds right. I don't know, might not be the best example (nor am I probably expressing my thought accurately) but that is how I view it.

Congrats ASeiple!
 

triceretops

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
14,060
Reaction score
2,755
Location
In a van down by the river
Website
guerrillawarfareforwriters.blogspot.com
Hi, Toothpaste and playground. I only thought that it might be YA in a sense that the kids use their knowledge and power for change. I was under the impression that MG had characters that were discovering the world around them and how to fit in. I think I picked that up in a video. My understanding that general MG is for about the ages of eight to 12. that's why I thought I was a little high. I'm 1.5 chapters into it, and I gotta tell ya I'm pretty scared about this. I'm sure you hit right on it when you said the tone has to be set, and I think so from the start. I'm having doubts about suspension of disbelief and I think that has to do with tone and revelation. I would call this an MG "portal" fantasy, like Alice in Wonderland or such.

I feel if I post the first chapter in SYW I might get swarmed with too many things at once. Now I would mind swapping first chapters with somebody here. I think it's a good idea for me to be given some guidance on tone, pace, dialogue and such. Any takers out there?
And what word count are you comfortable with for an MG story? They say 25,000 to 45,000 words. Didn't Harry Potter start off in the MG realm and go much long than that?
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Hi, Toothpaste and playground. I only thought that it might be YA in a sense that the kids use their knowledge and power for change. I was under the impression that MG had characters that were discovering the world around them and how to fit in. I think I picked that up in a video.

Well but I mean . . . main characters regardless of age have to DO things. You reference Harry Potter down below, and yes the first three books are solidly MG. Wouldn't you say that they are using their knowledge and power for change? I mean Harry defeats Voldemort in the very first book :) . Yes MG characters are also learning about the world around them, but they have to be active, they have to do something otherwise what's the point of the story? And while Alice in Wonderland is MG, it is old fashioned. The idea of a character falling into a world and just interacting in a whimsical fashion is not what current MGs are all about. Hence the suggestion that you read what's out there now. Even more so than instructional manuals. Quite honestly, I don't really trust those. :)


My understanding that general MG is for about the ages of eight to 12. that's why I thought I was a little high.

Yes but readers read up. So a 13 yearold protagonist is a fine age. It's certainly not YA age, too young.


I'm 1.5 chapters into it, and I gotta tell ya I'm pretty scared about this. I'm sure you hit right on it when you said the tone has to be set, and I think so from the start. I'm having doubts about suspension of disbelief and I think that has to do with tone and revelation. I would call this an MG "portal" fantasy, like Alice in Wonderland or such.

Keep going. You most likely will find the tone as you go along. You can always come back to the beginning and change it to match what you discover later on. But please please read current MGs. That will really help you with tone. A lot. Heck, not so sure it's helpful at all since it's only one chapter, but chapter one of mine out next year is available to preview online (scroll down to "Read an excerpt"): http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-explorers-adrienne-kress/1124232063?type=eBook

I feel if I post the first chapter in SYW I might get swarmed with too many things at once. Now I would mind swapping first chapters with somebody here. I think it's a good idea for me to be given some guidance on tone, pace, dialogue and such. Any takers out there?

I think if you say that you are super new at this and that you are looking specifically for notes on specific things and that you want people to be kind and patient with you that would result in a calmer kind of SYW critique. Also there aren't as many of us in that part of SYW so you won't be swarmed the way Query Letter Hell is for example :)

And what word count are you comfortable with for an MG story? They say 25,000 to 45,000 words. Didn't Harry Potter start off in the MG realm and go much long than that?

Yup that's a good length but it isn't the be all and end all. My first MG was 80K. This latest one out next year is 60K. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone was 70K. Short and sweet is the norm, but there are always exceptions. Write the book first and go from there :) .
 
Last edited:

technoglobe

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2016
Messages
63
Reaction score
8
Location
Ohio
They say 25,000 to 45,000 words. Didn't Harry Potter start off in the MG realm and go much long than that?

Just a warning, I'm unpublished, so I could be off base here. I've heard that MG fantasy (especially upper MG) runs more on the long end. I've heard 50k-60k on a couple of blogs.
 

triceretops

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
14,060
Reaction score
2,755
Location
In a van down by the river
Website
guerrillawarfareforwriters.blogspot.com
Thanks, Toothpaste. All great advice and I will have a look at your excerpt. Good advice about forging on and developing the tone and then coming back to make some tweaks. I think a sense of foreboding is what I'm after. I picked up Roald Dahl's Witches from our kids' room, but that might be too far into the classic style, and much older than what's out there. I might try SYW, if I get up the nerve. Haven't been there in a while. First chapters any genre? Or is there a kid's section?
 

triceretops

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
14,060
Reaction score
2,755
Location
In a van down by the river
Website
guerrillawarfareforwriters.blogspot.com
Nice excerpt, Adrienne. You have a good lead-in and I can see that it's not rushed. We have a little background of the family and Sebastian's education. The Explorers Society is the hook of interest, and the MC is wrestling with his curiosity of the door. Just from reading this, I think I might need a little more set-up. I'm very rushed and into the mystery too quickly. I think there is a lesson in pulling the reader along rather than shoving. I shoved very fast and hard , to get the action sequence out. I see that later in the chapter/excerpt, mood begins to creep into it--a foreboding. Consequences seem right around the corner.
 
Last edited:

erica_henry

Typing away 1 word at a time
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
1,941
Reaction score
241
Location
Murfreesboro, TN
Website
www.erica-henry.blogger.com
Hello everyone. I wanted to say I'm a newbie to MG but not writing. I'm almost finished editing my first MG and getting ready to start querying it. I'm so excited and nervous. I currently have a chapter book making it's rounds with agents, and my MG will be going around soon as well. I absolutely hate querying. It's like asking people to go out with you and having them laugh in your face for even asking. Ok, it really isn't all that bad, but still not fun lol.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Thanks, Toothpaste. All great advice and I will have a look at your excerpt. Good advice about forging on and developing the tone and then coming back to make some tweaks. I think a sense of foreboding is what I'm after. I picked up Roald Dahl's Witches from our kids' room, but that might be too far into the classic style, and much older than what's out there. I might try SYW, if I get up the nerve. Haven't been there in a while. First chapters any genre? Or is there a kid's section?

If you are looking to create a sense of forboding may I recommend Kenneth Oppel's THE NEST. It's a MG book that came out this year, really really creepy, and it's been winning a ton of awards and stuff. I also highly recommend you go to a bookstore and have a scan of the 8 - 12 yearold section. Maybe the front table where the more popular books are located. Take a day when you aren't rushed and maybe read a couple first chapters of various books, heck maybe if a couple intrigue you buy them and have a read.

And yes, there's a kid section in SYW, just scroll down to "Children's" :)





Nice excerpt, Adrienne. You have a good lead-in and I can see that it's not rushed. We have a little background of the family and Sebastian's education. The Explorers Society is the hook of interest, and the MC is wrestling with his curiosity of the door. Just from reading this, I think I might need a little more set-up. I'm very rushed and into the mystery too quickly. I think there is a lesson in pulling the reader along rather than shoving. I shoved very fast and hard , to get the action sequence out. I see that later in the chapter/excerpt, mood begins to creep into it--a foreboding. Consequences seem right around the corner.

Thank you! That's very lovely of you to say :) .

And I think yes, this is a problem many writers (of all genres and markets) face these days. We are told so much by agents and publishers that we need to start with a metaphorical bang that I think we as authors panic a bit and sometimes rush to get into the story without really giving the beginning its due. The key to starting with a bang is simply starting with interest. Starting in a place that the reader goes, "Ooh, okay, let's see what happens!" Sometimes yes writers start too soon, a few chapters too early and there's far too much set up and not enough story. But because of this warning I think many authors have now taken it to the extreme on the other side. They rush into things now a bit too fast.

Taking your time is important. Also don't forget: this is your first draft. You can edit the crap out of this in time. You might be in a position right now where you need to write more not less in order to figure out your story and style. You can cut things later if you need to.
 

triceretops

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
14,060
Reaction score
2,755
Location
In a van down by the river
Website
guerrillawarfareforwriters.blogspot.com
Ah, thanks. I agree that editors and agents have this notion of a lightening start--a real grabber. I've had quite a few comments about "the first pages didn't grab me." It's all in technique really, not so much a fireworks display. Should have interest in the MC up there so we care about him/her--that can be a great hook/grabber in itself. And there is nothing wrong with a little set-up. I just have to watch my backstory getting crowded in there like I have done with many books.

Oh, and thanks. Kid section--SYW. I just might be headed that way after some grammar work and a few tweaks.
 
Last edited:

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Exactly. It's not about being EXCITING!!!!!! It's about being compelling. And ultimately yes, it's all about the main character. I do think sometimes in MG people get all wrapped up in the cool fantastical world they created, or the whimsy, or teaching a lesson, or being funny or whatever that they forget that the thing even child readers need most (just like adult) is an interesting main character (this isn't to say that adult writers don't fall into the exact same trap)

And great! Let us know when you do :)