Would you or wouldn't you?

regdog

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China may be developed industrially, however the majority of Chinese cannot be said to live in a developed society. Plus they aren't the ones going to be able to afford this treatment.

No, but they are proof of how gender selection is a real bad idea. They may not select the gender of their child by sperm selecting, but they do by girl dumping.
 

Samantha's_Song

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Yes, and?
Yes, you did... but your last comment was .....


"I've personally got nothing against abortion, but if you're going to have one, do it because you don't want a baby at all, not just because the baby's the wrong sex."


So, I was reiteratating...
 

Hettie

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I was just reiterating... not saying you did not say it.... Maybe I should of said... "Samantha's Song, your first sentence was correct." (Not that your last sentence was not or the one's in between).

:eek:

Your first sentence was: "I think you should get what you're given naturally, but there again it's got to be better than aborting a baby because it's the wrong sex." Which I am assuming is about the gender selection being better than aborting an unwanted sex.

The last sentence was just about abortion. So, I was reiterating the first point- needlessly I guess-

I WAS agreeing with your point! TRULY!
 
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TerzaRima

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This is really distasteful to me on a gut level. Beyond the ick, I wonder about the gender based expectations of parents who would be interested in this level of control over designing a family. In other words, if you want a son this much, wouldn't you want the child to embody certain fantasies you had about parenting a boy--playing football, going fishing, traditionally masculine pursuits? How would you feel if you didn't get that type of boy; after all, you went to great lengths to order one up.
 

Cranky

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Well, since I think I'm probably the only person here who has copped to wanting a daughter when I've only had sons, I'll say this, Terza: so what if they didn't turn out like I hoped? Not a big deal to me. Children have a way of defying whatever expectations you might have of them, for good or ill. I would have maybe a year or so to dress her up in a pretty dress or whatever, but she's still a person in her own right, and any attempts to "mold" her into whatever image I had of a girl would be a resounding failure. My father tried to treat me like the boy he wished I was, and while I was a tomboy for many years, ultimately, I've ended up pretty darn girly, as far as that goes.

So, while it makes people "ick" that I might desire to have a daughter (and might very well have chosen the gender of one of my children at the time, if I could have), I can also tell you it's about a lot more than just having a dolly to play dress up with, and I won't apologize for wishing that I had a daughter. Now, that doesn't mean that I wish away any of my boys, because I love them very much just the way they are. They're all very cool, unique people, and irreplaceable. But it would be nice to have a daughter in the mix, too. Funny that this thread actually makes me feel a lot more comfortable with the idea that I wanted that.

ETA: Also, I find it a bit appalling that people would be okay with selecting away for a disease, but not for sex or gender. So, I guess it would be perfectly okay with everyone if I had selected to abort my autistic son, but not if I had deliberately chosen to have a girl?
 
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backslashbaby

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My cousin did it years and years ago (she works with genetic research). It made total sense, on a personal level. She already had boys and wanted a girl. Just because they are both so nice. Her family is great. It'd be great with all boys, of course, but man is that girl a character :D

In the grand scheme of things, I can see the problems, definitely, but if folks just want both genders, what's not to understand about that? It can mean you adore both sexes and have no hang-ups about either being better.
 

Samantha's_Song

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Yes, that is what I was meaning. It's got to be better, for all concerned, to choose the sex of the baby rather than get rid of it because it's the wrong sex. :)
Which I am assuming is about the gender selection being better than aborting an unwanted sex.
 

Samantha's_Song

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Gawd, no, not at all. I had a different sort of argument about this kind of thing with a girl I used to work with. She was on about she would never have a termination, but she'd never want a child who wasn't perfect and would put it into an institution. I was furious with her and told her that an imperfect child had just as much right, if not more so, to love as a normal child.

I'm not a maternal kind of person and never wanted any children, I never had any, but I greatly respect someone like you who loves and cares so much for their autistic child or one that has any other health condition. :Hug2:
ETA: Also, I find it a bit appalling that people would be okay with selecting away for a disease, but not for sex or gender. So, I guess it would be perfectly okay with everyone if I had selected to abort my autistic son, but not if I had deliberately chosen to have a girl?
 

TerzaRima

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But it would be nice to have a daughter in the mix, too

Cranky, sure, but would you throw a lot of money and technology at not having a son if you could?

When I separate this from any curmudgeonly knee jerk going on, what skeeves me about this is that it smacks just a little of commodification of children. I could understand it-appalling or not-- if you or anyone else elected to abort a fetus with abnormalities because very often, IME, that choice is based on the prospective parents' perception of the quality of life of a disabled child. (I might not privately agree with their assessment, but I could understand)

Except in the case of X-linked conditions, medical gender selection really isn't about any concern for the child; it strikes me as being about people wanting certain experiences out of parenthood and exerting an unusual degree of control to get them.

It also seems a tad excessive when 1) so many people can't even have one healthy child of either sex and 2) there are lots of kids without parents, and a burning desire to parent the other gender could be satiated by fostering and/or adopting.
 

Hettie

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This is such a hard subject... the lines are crossed and skewed. As a special ed. teacher and a mom to two kids with special needs, I hate that people would willingly abort a fetus because of a 'possible' problem. Quality of life means different things to different people. I would not trade my kids or my students (well maybe I would TRADE my students- but I would not wish them not to have been born). I could not tell someone else that they are horrible for doing that though. Not my job to judge!

Gender selection seems less 'ick' to me...

I understand someone's point about expectations of the child, and that pressure it might cause. I see it everyday!
 

JoNightshade

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Except in the case of X-linked conditions, medical gender selection really isn't about any concern for the child; it strikes me as being about people wanting certain experiences out of parenthood and exerting an unusual degree of control to get them.

It also seems a tad excessive when 1) so many people can't even have one healthy child of either sex and 2) there are lots of kids without parents, and a burning desire to parent the other gender could be satiated by fostering and/or adopting.

Yes, yes, YES.

A person (or couple) who are so stuck on having ONE SEX and not the other probably aren't fit to be parents in the first place. My husband and I both really wanted our first child to be a boy; we did in fact get one, but would we have disowned or aborted or NOT LOVED a girl if that's what it turned out to be? Heck no. We're in this to be parents, not to have a kid that fills some sort of bizarre hole in our own lives.
 

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sure. If someone really wanted a girl or a boy then why not?

I'd do it..if I wanted kids.
 

Cranky

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Gawd, no, not at all. I had a different sort of argument about this kind of thing with a girl I used to work with. She was on about she would never have a termination, but she'd never want a child who wasn't perfect and would put it into an institution. I was furious with her and told her that an imperfect child had just as much right, if not more so, to love as a normal child.

I'm not a maternal kind of person and never wanted any children, I never had any, but I greatly respect someone like you who loves and cares so much for their autistic child or one that has any other health condition. :Hug2:

My apologies. I am not in the best of moods of late, and I think it's made me a little snarkier than I otherwise would be. I was just frustrated with the idea that one is better than the other, or that one can be justified, but not the other. I'm not really sure how I feel about the whole thing, honestly. I just think it's perfectly legit to want a child of a specific gender. I DO think it can get to be too obsessive, and can backfire in a bad way if someone wants a child of a specific gender for "all the wrong reasons", but I don't know that we should be preventing everyone from doing it because some will inevitably do something that makes us uncomfortable. Another example would be invitro fertilization, or some other form of assisted reproduction. Most of the time, I think it works out incredibly well. Then you get someone like Octomom, who takes this to a whole other level. That doesn't mean that everyone who uses invitro is an irresponsible asshat. So, by the same token, I don't think everyone (or even most) people who would choose the gender of their child would be irresponsible or whatever about it, either.

So, yeah, I'm a little tangled up in my thinking on this, and I apologize again to everyone for my earlier post.

Cranky, sure, but would you throw a lot of money and technology at not having a son if you could?

When I separate this from any curmudgeonly knee jerk going on, what skeeves me about this is that it smacks just a little of commodification of children. I could understand it-appalling or not-- if you or anyone else elected to abort a fetus with abnormalities because very often, IME, that choice is based on the prospective parents' perception of the quality of life of a disabled child. (I might not privately agree with their assessment, but I could understand)

Except in the case of X-linked conditions, medical gender selection really isn't about any concern for the child; it strikes me as being about people wanting certain experiences out of parenthood and exerting an unusual degree of control to get them.

It also seems a tad excessive when 1) so many people can't even have one healthy child of either sex and 2) there are lots of kids without parents, and a burning desire to parent the other gender could be satiated by fostering and/or adopting.

WRT the bolded, Terza, I guess that's the crux of the matter. I wouldn't be trying to not have a son, but rather trying to have a daughter. It's a hairsplitting sort of thing to say, but I think it makes a big difference in terms of where your head is at when making such a choice, you know? And I think it would be that way for most folks. I could be wrong, and I know I shouldn't assume everyone would approach this the same way I would (especially because not everyone is in the same situation...I might feel differently if they absolutely REFUSED for some reason not to have a son or a daughter for gender based reasons).
 

Samantha's_Song

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There's no need to apologise, Gal, we all have issues close to our hearts and that we'd defend to the last. :)
My apologies. I am not in the best of moods of late, and I think it's made me a little snarkier than I otherwise would be.
 

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I say leave it well alone - it is all very well creating lots of boy babies but what the parents forget is that there will no girls for their precious boys to marry ! If there are no girls - well you work it out - men can't give birth !
 

dgiharris

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What is wrong with wanting a specific gender?

I was first, next came my brother. Then my mother got pregnant again and we ALL wanted it to be a girl and luckily my little sister came next.

Now if we were given the choice then, we would have picked girl, hands down.

Why leave something to chance if you don't have to?

I know the first viseral response is NO, but upon closer examination, we make these sorts of choices all the time.

When I have children, I want BOTH girls and boys. Why should I leave that to 'chance' when I don't have to?

Mel...
 

Susan Gable

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There does seem to be a majority here who think only boys would be selected.

Personally, I'd love to also be one who selected for a daughter. Maybe on the first kid, you spin the wheel, you take your chances. Which I did, and had a son.

I would have loved to have a daughter as well. Would I have some preconceived notions about what having a daughter means? Of course. Would I go nutty if those didn't pan out? No. The son isn't working out quite like I'd hoped, to tell you the truth. :cry:

I still love him.

I think you'd find that a lot of American families would want BOTH sexes.

Susan G.
 

Alpha Echo

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I think this is an interesting discussion, but it surprises me that so many people are for this. I feel funny, as though it's playing God to choose the gender of your child. But then, I have mixed emotions about abortion, and if I chose to abort my child, aren't I trying to play God?

I don't know. My natural instinct is hell no! I wouldn't pick and choose what kind of child I was going to have. But the more I think about it, I see that it's a fine line, and we're crossing it. If you say someone can choose the gender of their child, soon we'll all be designing our own children, choosing hair color and type, eye color, lip shape...whatever. I think crossing a line into this territory is scary and might very easily backfire. I am rambling now. I just, I can't say for sure that I'd keep a child if I found out he/she had major health issues. I don't know if I"m someone that could face the rest of my life knowing I'd always be caring for someone. then again, that "someone" would be my child. I used to be against abortion - but then I think about young girls who are raped and end up pregnant. Who could expect them to keep that child at the risk of their own health? Or even after leaving my ex - if I had ended up pregnant with his child while going through the divorce...I am not sure I'd have kept the child! I don't want that man in my life for the rest of my life, and I certainly didn't want the complications of a child!

So if I'm willing to consider abortion depending on the circumstances, I'm playing God. Why then, would it be wrong to play God and decide that I want a girl instead of a boy or vica versa?

I really don't know.
 

tjwriter

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This just makes me sick on so many levels, and I'm not even sure I could put words to it.

The best way I can describe it is that it smacks of playing house and creating the 'perfect' family. I'm going to you here and 'you' here and 'you' here and you're going to do exactly what I say because this is my family and I call the shots.

But I think learning to deal with the unexpected and handling surprises makes us grow as people. We have two girls. We'd love to have a boy. I'd love to try again for another child, period. It really wouldn't matter to me. My husband's the last male in his family, so having a boy would mean something, but I couldn't do it this way.

Sometimes learning that what you wanted wasn't really what you wanted at all is an important lesson. I think things like this take away from that experience.
 

Alpha Echo

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This just makes me sick on so many levels, and I'm not even sure I could put words to it.

The best way I can describe it is that it smacks of playing house and creating the 'perfect' family. I'm going to you here and 'you' here and 'you' here and you're going to do exactly what I say because this is my family and I call the shots.

But I think learning to deal with the unexpected and handling surprises makes us grow as people. We have two girls. We'd love to have a boy. I'd love to try again for another child, period. It really wouldn't matter to me. My husband's the last male in his family, so having a boy would mean something, but I couldn't do it this way.

Sometimes learning that what you wanted wasn't really what you wanted at all is an important lesson. I think things like this take away from that experience.

I agree. And I know I wouldn't choose the sex of my child even if I could. My point (and I know you weren't just responding to me, you were responding to the thread), but my point was just that...I don't know if, because of other conflicting thoughts i have, I can rightly say, even though I disagree with this particular situation, that it's absolutely wrong. Well, that's not true. I believe abortion is wrong but just can't say for sure that no matter what the circumstances are, I would never have one. I can't say that. So how can I say that others can't decide the gender of their child even though I disagree with it?
 

Cranky

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This just makes me sick on so many levels, and I'm not even sure I could put words to it.

The best way I can describe it is that it smacks of playing house and creating the 'perfect' family. I'm going to you here and 'you' here and 'you' here and you're going to do exactly what I say because this is my family and I call the shots.

But I think learning to deal with the unexpected and handling surprises makes us grow as people. We have two girls. We'd love to have a boy. I'd love to try again for another child, period. It really wouldn't matter to me. My husband's the last male in his family, so having a boy would mean something, but I couldn't do it this way.

Sometimes learning that what you wanted wasn't really what you wanted at all is an important lesson. I think things like this take away from that experience.

Hmph. Well, speaking only for myself here, I think I've already learned that lesson quite well enough, and I'd prefer not to have others deciding what's best for me and my family. And just getting the gender of child you wanted doesn't guarantee the outcome you were hoping for anyway. I hoped (at bottom) only for a healthy "normal" child, and I didn't get that with any of my children. One is developmentally delayed, one has severe ADHD, another is autistic, and the youngest is hyperlexic and gifted. I didn't foresee ANY of that happening. I've had to adjust the way I always thought I would parent children. It also doesn't mean I love them any less. I don't see how selecting for gender and having the child turn out to be different than you expected it to be to be any different. There are no guarantees in life.

Plenty of people have to adjust their expectations when reality doesn't meet those expectations. Marriage, jobs, friendships, all these things can disappoint, surprise, or excite you in ways you never can foresee. Bottom line is, I don't think anyone else should have the right to make those sorts of decisions for someone else. If it makes you sick to consider the idea of selecting the gender of your child ahead of time, well, thankfully, no one is going to make you do that. And by the same token, no one else should have that decision made for them, either.
 

Celia Cyanide

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Sometimes learning that what you wanted wasn't really what you wanted at all is an important lesson. I think things like this take away from that experience.

I think it's a bit condescending to suggest that a family that might want to make such a choice hasn't learned this, in some way, already. Those who don't believe in birth control probably say what you've just said, but it isn't their descision, either.

I honestly don't understand what is so distasteful about this. People who adopt often choose the gender and even ethnicity of their babies.
 

tjwriter

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Hmmm. I'm being blasted for that last bit of what I said.

Can I point out for a minute that I never said anything about others making decisions for you? I said that I don't agree with it and that I think this takes away from important life experiences and growth opportunities. I think that about plenty of things that people do every day. So what's new? I was just giving my opinion on it. I never told anyone what they could or couldn't do.

And Cranky, I was thinking specifically you and other parents of special needs kids when I wrote that middle bit. I've watched you here go to the line again and again when people say careless things that hit home to your situation. You are one of the people I admire most here. I know that you never planned to have several special needs kids or anticipated the ways it would change you life. My point was more of a wondering how many of you in this situation would go back in time and select perfect, healthy babies instead of the ones you got? Give up your current family so you could go back and get the "perfect" family?

I worry that there will be lost opportunities when we start picking and choosing. Right now it's deciding if you want a boy or girl, but we know that it's not far off from the time we'll get to decide a lot more than that. And yes, I know that we make some of those type decisions today (selectively abort a girl, for instance), and those things worry me now.
 
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Celia Cyanide

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Can I point out for a minute that I never said anything about others making decisions for you? I said that I don't agree with it and that I think this takes away from important life experiences and growth opportunities. I think that about plenty of things that people do every day. So what's new? I was just giving my opinion on it. I never told anyone what they could or couldn't do.

Fair enough. But you did say it made you sick, which sounds a bit judgemental.

I worry that there will be lost opportunities when we start picking and choosing.

Why? I don't understand why any opportunity would be lost, just because someone is able do decide to have a boy or a girl.