Is Health Reform Really a Class War?

Christine N. · Aug 17, 2009

The only thing I can say right now is that Bush sure as hell mangled the system with his No Child Left Behind crap. Worst. Education. Legislation. EVER.

I also don't disagree that public education could use a boost in order to globally compete. However, what would we have otherwise? A system where there are only private schools that very few can afford? Then we'd REALLY be an illiterate nation, just as we're a nation in poor health now. Or are you proposing a network of charter schools where kids compete to get in? I don't understand what the other choices are in your mind.

robeiae · Aug 17, 2009

Christine N. said:
The only thing I can say right now is that Bush sure as hell mangled the system with his No Child Left Behind crap. Worst. Education. Legislation. EVER.

You mean the legislation authored by Ted Kennedy and supported by more Dems in the House than Repubs?

Robert Toy · Aug 17, 2009

no the other one...you know the Bush one

Christine N. · Aug 17, 2009

Rob, I don't really give a shit who wrote the damn thing. He stood up and said it was terrific, fantastic, going to make schools better. I didn't hear anyone else shouting that.

It sux on ice. You are making this about partisanship. I don't give a rat's ass what letter's behind your name if you're doing something stupid. If Ted Kennedy stood up in press conferences and said how great NCLB was (at least to a degree that I remembered it), I'd throw snowballs at him too. I remember Bush and Laura going on and on about it - but I know they didn't get there alone.

tiny · Aug 17, 2009

After spending the last two years dealing with a government run health care system, anyone who wants it is welcome to it. I'd rather jab a needle in my ear.

MattW · Aug 17, 2009

robeiae said:
You mean the legislation authored by Ted Kennedy and supported by more Dems in the House than Repubs?

The same one that was intended to patch the failings in a major network of government agencies, only to create more of said failings?

How many chances to they deserve before it becomes apparent that their "solutions" only create more problems?

MattW · Aug 17, 2009

tiny terror said:
After spending the last two years dealing with a government run health care system, anyone who wants it is welcome to it. I'd rather jab a needle in my ear.

Good news, then! You just discovered Obamacare's vaccination method.

Elaine Margarett · Aug 17, 2009

robeiae said:
And that's the only way you can "do" for your fellow man? By handing it off to the government?

Of course not.

Do I need to give you a list? Let's see, I volunteered in the public school system for six years. I started a sucessful non-profit service organization, took it through incorp; was the president of said corp for two years. That was twelve years ago and it's still viable and contributing to society today although I am no longer involved with it. I donate to my church and other charities, including police and other law enforcement agencies. I could go on but why belabor a point? I don't do it for accolades. I do it because I see a need.

robeiae · Aug 17, 2009

Christine N. said:
Rob, I don't really give a shit who wrote the damn thing. He stood up and said it was terrific, fantastic, going to make schools better. I didn't hear anyone else shouting that.

It sux on ice. You are making this about partisanship. I don't give a rat's ass what letter's behind your name if you're doing something stupid. If Ted Kennedy stood up in press conferences and said how great NCLB was (at least to a degree that I remembered it), I'd throw snowballs at him too. I remember Bush and Laura going on and on about it - but I know they didn't get there alone.

I'm making it partisan? You blame BUSH--alone--for "mangling the system" as your lead off point and I'm making it partisan by pointing out that the legislation was fully supported by the "opposition," and was even written by it?

And the opposition that, using your words, mangled the system is still there and will be the ones that "fix" healthcare. You don't see a problem, here?

robeiae · Aug 17, 2009

Elaine Margarett said:
Of course not.

Do I need to give you a list?

No.

But you assumed that those who disagree with you must lack empathy and compassion. Why? Because they disagree with you. Right?

Gretad08 · Aug 17, 2009

Elaine Margarett said:
Of course not.

Do I need to give you a list? Let's see, I volunteered in the public school system for six years. I started a sucessful non-profit service organization, took it through incorp; was the president of said corp for two years. That was twelve years ago and it's still viable and contributing to society today although I am no longer involved with it. I donate to my church and other charities, including police and other law enforcement agencies. I could go but why belabor a point? I don't do it for accolades. I do it because I see a need.

That's great...the world needs more of you.

Now, let's keep these things in the private sector so they can continue to work, or even start to work better.

There are a lot of people here that do plenty for their communities that don't feel that this particular healthcare reform plan is going to be good for the US.

MattW · Aug 17, 2009

Gretad08 said:
That's great...the world needs more of you.

Now, let's keep these things in the private sector so they can continue to work, or even start to work better.

There are a lot of people here that do plenty for their communities that don't feel that this particular healthcare reform plan is going to be good for the US.

And there are people who volunteer , um, voluntarily, and don't think anyone should be forced to be charitable.

Gretad08 · Aug 17, 2009

MattW said:
And there are people who volunteer , um, voluntarily, and don't think anyone should be forced to be charitable.

That's exactly what I'm saying...(you're agreeing w/ me right?)

LaceWing · Aug 17, 2009

Gretad08 said:
There are a lot of people here that do plenty for their communities that don't feel that this particular healthcare reform plan is going to be good for the US.

true, dat -- regardless of partisanship

dclary · Aug 17, 2009

Christine N. said:
Rob, I don't really give a shit who wrote the damn thing. He stood up and said it was terrific, fantastic, going to make schools better. I didn't hear anyone else shouting that.

It sux on ice. You are making this about partisanship. I don't give a rat's ass what letter's behind your name if you're doing something stupid. If Ted Kennedy stood up in press conferences and said how great NCLB was (at least to a degree that I remembered it), I'd throw snowballs at him too. I remember Bush and Laura going on and on about it - but I know they didn't get there alone.

You sure cuss a lot.

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dclary · Aug 17, 2009

LaceWing said:
Why Trinidad and Tobago? Did Chomsky have all his vacations there or something?

Srsly, though. I was glad to wiki search "whole language learning" -- very interesting. I even pulled up some wiki articles on Trinidad and Tobago and education.

LA Weekly had a scathing in-depth article on the failure of Whole Language in California (we fucked an entire generation of students). Reprinted (illegally, I think) here.

Ah, the article said "New Zealand" not Trinidad and Tobago. My apologize to the Trinidadians and Tobagonese.

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Elaine Margarett · Aug 17, 2009

Gretad08 said:
That's great...the world needs more of you.

Now, let's keep these things in the private sector so they can continue to work, or even start to work better.

There are a lot of people here that do plenty for their communities that don't feel that this particular healthcare reform plan is going to be good for the US.

Then help me understand. What, specifically, don't you like about *this particular healthcare plan*...other than the fact it could lead to nationalize healthcare (assuming the consenses of those who actually utilize NH, think it's good) or higher taxes?

MattW · Aug 17, 2009

Elaine Margarett said:
Then help me understand. What, specifically, don't you like about *this particular healthcare plan*...

My objection is one you would see anywhere in any of the top 10 threads in PCE - that the proposed legislation does very little to solve the real underlying problems. It only puts a shine on some problems that translate into political capital while doing very little for Americans in need (or all Americans), all while expanding an infrastructure that is part of the current problem.

Gretad08 · Aug 17, 2009

Elaine Margarett said:
Then help me understand. What, specifically, don't you like about *this particular healthcare plan*...other than the fact it could lead to nationalize healthcare (assuming the consenses of those who actually utilize NH, think it's good) or higher taxes?

Wow, we've never interacted yet you're jumping right into assumptions about me. Oh well, I'll play anyway.

I'll reiterate what I and others said in another thread. I'm neither smart/clever/experienced enough to come up with my own idea for reform. Yes, I believe that we need reform. I do, however, feel that *this particular health care plan* (still trying to figure out why you put asterisks around this) is going to create more problems than solutions.

For one, yes, I despise a plan that will create higher taxes. We pay enough. We don't need to pay more, we need to reform how our money is being spent now.

We also need tort reform in order to bring down the cost of healthcare and insurance which will then be passed on to the consumer.

And, I truly believe (from personal experience) the systems we currently have in place to help the underpriveledged are massively abused. If we could start with these instead of trying to create more then maybe we'd get somewhere.

These are just a few of the reasons I don't trust this plan. It isn't b/c it might create nationalized healthcare. It's b/c I think there is a better way to do this.

MelodyO · Aug 17, 2009

Although I hold the Canadian health care system gratefully to my bosom when I hear all the US horror stories, I'm the first to admit that our results vs costs are far from perfect when compared to many other countries. That's why I have to wonder why Canada is so often dragged into this dogfight as the prime example of how the US doesn't want to end up. Leave us out of it, please do! You can borrow and implement ideas from other countries, y'know (the ones that rate a heck of a lot higher than us on those WHO lists, for starters). I'm just hoping the Canadian government does the same thing one of these days.

Robert Toy · Aug 17, 2009

Liberals Warn Obama Not to Drop Public Option

Weiner indicated that some in the president's own party feel betrayed after supporting him on health care reform and then taking lumps from constituents.

"Some of us who have gotten roughed up pretty good at town hall meetings and stuck in there because we believe in this, now kind of feel like we have a tire track on our chest where the bus that rolled over us is," Weiner said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8343772

Zoombie · Aug 17, 2009

I'm still pro-stealing ideas from other countries!

Steal French's nuclear energy program, steal "best healthcare country's" heath care, steal "best school country's" school system.

Make America great the good old fashioned way! By ripping everyone else's ideas off!

Prozyan · Aug 17, 2009

Zoombie said:
steal "best healthcare country's" heath care, steal "best school country's" school system.

Australia would be a good start, their health care system is top notch.

Dommo · Aug 17, 2009

All I want is for the insurance industry to be destroyed as it currently exists.

I want the following.

1. A distributed risk system that everyone pays into. This provides a level of baseline coverage to every American, it might not be great but at least you don't have to worry about losing your home if you break your leg. Health care should be something that is attainable by all, regardless of income.
2. The removal of pharmaceutical patents, if the research was funded in whole or in part with public money. We shouldn't be getting raked over the coals when we're the ones who largely fund the research these companies do.
3. Good Samaritan laws for Doctors and caps on lawsuits. A doctor who is acting in good faith and makes a mistake shouldn't be crucified, because they're only human. It's one thing if a doctor is truly negligent, but accidents happen.
4. Private insurance is something that people can pay for if they want the "deluxe" treatment and express lanes. I'd rather have to wait a few weeks to see a specialist than get reamed for a thousand bucks for spending 15 minutes in a doctor's office.
5. Have government incentives for doctors choosing to become general practitioners and for working in the public sphere. For example giving them an income tax exemption for working publicly, and providing them exclusive financing through federal backed loans(e.g. they can buy a single house for themselves at whatever interest rate the fed is loaning money at). Privately practicing doctors would be denied these benefits and would be subject to the taxes we all experience. That way what a doctor might not make in raw income, might be supplanted through affordable housing, tax breaks, and other fringe benefits(say a government pension).

These are a few ideas. I'm all about trying to make medical care accessible to everyone in the same way that public schools are.

benbradley · Aug 17, 2009

Elaine Margarett said:
No. I measure empathy and compassion by what I can do for my fellow man. If that means supporting government programs that provide humanitarian services, even if it means paying more taxes, I'm okay with that.

Yeah, whatever.

Is Health Reform Really a Class War?

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