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Cleis Press

JanDarby

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I think the uncertainty is one of the hardest things about a writing career. Even really basic stuff, like, "did they even receive it?" is never completely known. And then, did it get past an initial read, or did someone take one look at the first sentence, roll her eyes and stuff it into the recycling bin? (Not that they'd do that with your submission, Maryn, but it's what I start imagining if I think about my submissions too much.)

Wish I could shed some light on it, but my subs to Cleis were always to individual, independent editors, for specific calls, with clearly set timetables, and, with one exception, the editors always did respond within a week or two of the date in the schedule. But that's different from subbing directly to Cleis.
 

MumblingSage

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I was wondering if any authors who have already contracted on a Cleis anthology could share what the terms are (specifically how long the exclusive publication rights last). One anthology of theirs looks really good for my story, but it's a story I hope to reprint one day in a collection of connected pieces and I don't want to sign away rights for seven years or something (which I've seen).
 

Maddie

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I subbed a mss for an Erotic Romance novel on 2/18, and received an email confirmation from Brenda Knight today, 2/27, that the mss was being circulated amongst their editorial staff. I would absolutely love to sell a novel to Cleis, they're right up my alley, and though it doesn't really matter in this electronic age, for me, they are local (Berkeley, CA).
 

Maryn

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Still, Maddie, the idea of being able to meet your editor for coffee is a lovely thought. Best of luck!

Maryn, who ain't meetin' nobody for nuthin'
 

EvolvingK

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I was wondering if any authors who have already contracted on a Cleis anthology could share what the terms are (specifically how long the exclusive publication rights last). One anthology of theirs looks really good for my story, but it's a story I hope to reprint one day in a collection of connected pieces and I don't want to sign away rights for seven years or something (which I've seen).

This is old, clearly, but I wanted to put down here that in the antho I sold to at the beginning of the year, all granted rights were listed as non-exclusive in the contract. I assume the contract was boilerplate, it was with Kristina Wright who works with them frequently, and who I adore.

I am seriously concerned, though, about their sale, and what that will mean for them.
 

pugalicious

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Does anyone here have any experience with Cleis anthologies? I've sold a story to one, have signed a contract with the lovely editor, but have been holding off on announcing the sale because the editor has noted that final approval of the ToC still has to happen with Cleis (which is fine, and something I am used to from other anthologies). But the release date of the anthology is getting closer and closer, and I've heard nothing -- when I've followed up with the editor, they've also noted they are waiting for the very final stamp of approval. That said, the book is already available for pre-order on major sites. Should I assume all is well, but I'm never going to see galleys on this? If you've been in a Cleis anthology what was the final pre-publication process for you?
 

Clairels

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Cleis is publishing my memoir next year. While I don't have any experience with the Cleis anthologies, I can tell you that due to the recent sale of the publisher to Start, they've had to put a lot of things temporarily on hold while they hammer out the details.
 

DexyDoo

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Does anyone here have any experience with Cleis anthologies?

I sold a short to them last year for the Hungry for More anthology that came out in August this year. After signing the contract, it was a while before hearing anything else from the editor and you don't get paid until the book is actually published. However, they did pay and they did send me two contributors copies, I think, within a month of publication.

I did get word from the editor about promo stuff before the book was available for pre-order tho. Also, no galleys. At least, not for the one I'm in.

I have several shorts on submission with them right now and most are past the deadline given for a response, but that could have to do with Cleis being acquired by Start Publishing.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/.../64604-start-publishing-buys-cleis-press.html
 

Aggy B.

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Just wanted to add that I never saw a galley on the short story I sold to one of their anthologies. Also received a note from the editor earlier today saying that payment would be made shortly (it's due out in December) - there had been a slight delay due to the sale of the company but everything is proceeding as it should.
 

EvolvingK

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Just agreeing with what others are saying; I have a story accepted for an antho that was scheduled out for spring, and might be slightly delayed; I haven't seen galleys for it. I believe it's the editor who handles that, rather than parceling it out to all the authors.
 

EvolvingK

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I'm hearing really horrible things about Cleis Press in the changeover to Start. Contracts being dropped, books not on sale and no one can explain why...no good. I'm just an author in an antho, but I am officially putting them on my "wait for things to settle" list before I sub towards them again.
 

Clairels

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I'm hearing really horrible things about Cleis Press in the changeover to Start. Contracts being dropped, books not on sale and no one can explain why...no good. I'm just an author in an antho, but I am officially putting them on my "wait for things to settle" list before I sub towards them again.

Do you have any more details about this and who was affected? I signed a contract with Cleis in 2013 for a nonfiction book. I submitted the final draft in September 2014; the last I heard from Brenda is that wouldn't start reading it until December. It's now March, obviously, and I haven't heard anything. I won't receive the other half of my advance until that happens, and I don't have a firm release date yet, either.

Thankfully I also have my agent helping me out. I realize the sale has complicated things immensely and I'm not to the point where I'm worried (yet), but I do want to find out as much as possible considering I'm not getting much in the way of information from Cleis, who seem a bit overwhelmed.

(On the other hand, their publicity people still seem to be doing a good job as I see reviews and write-ups fairly regularly).
 

EvolvingK

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Do you have any more details about this and who was affected?

Here's Violet Blue's post about Best Women's Erotica 2015. There are a bunch more authors speaking up in the comments.

Alison Tyler's post about having 20 of her ebooks pulled because of a contract issue.

I received word from an editor with whom I had contracted a short for an antho that Cleis would now not be moving forward with the antho, or two other anthologies that she'd contracted with them before the sale. She hasn't posted about it publicly anywhere, though.
 

EvolvingK

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Damn. I'm so glad now that I didn't jump to send stuff to other anthologies from Cleis. At one point, they had a strong rep, even if they never paid well.

Yup.

Can I just say that I'm fed up with erotic romance publishers behaving badly? I'm sure other publishers are, as well, and this is just confirmation bias, but...jeez.
 

EvolvingK

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It's depressing to watch the tally of viable erotic romance publishers devolve, self-destruct, or just never live up to early hype and promises.

Is it possible that this is because the "bigger" publishers have opened their eyes to the incredibly profitable market that exists for smutty romance, and so people who can get "better" deals either are doing that, or are s/ping because so many small presses still expect authors to do the lion's share of the marketing work?
 

Filigree

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Probably both.

Self-publishing took a huge bite out of the erotica and erotic romance markets. Now that smut seems to be going mainstream (I've actually seen some social indicators that it hasn't, not in the way or extent claimed by lots of pundits*), those little publishers no longer have an ocean of skilled, willing authors.

The small presses are counting on 1) ramping up quality or 2) on authors not doing market research, or being so intimidated/outraged by bigger imprints they'll happily drink the fruity beverage. Sadly, I see the latter response more often, usually couched in comforting phrases like 'we are all family' or 'we will help make your dreams come true.'

I subbed to a Cleis antho in late 2011 because I thought the concept was interesting. HBO's Game of Thrones was taking off. I believed a Cleis sale in erotic high fantasy might help balance my depressing history of sales to defunct or one-off presses and close-but-no-cigar contest standings (it did). I earned between $60 and $75 for it on a one-time payment, I'd actually have to check my contract for the exact amount. It was worth it.

In 2015, I'd wait and see if Start repairs the Cleis reputation before I queried them again.

* I'm on a tablet so I can't paste sources as easily. But in the last week I've read some articles about it. The written smut market is incredibly strong. The Fifty Shades movie opened well, but apparently lost box-office take the next week. The growing middle-class 'twee' movement appears to have elements of asexuality, if not outright fear of sexuality.
 
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EvolvingK

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* I'm on a tablet so I can't paste sources as easily. But in the last week I've read some articles about it. The written smut market is incredibly strong. The Fifty Shades movie opened well, but apparently lost box-office take the next week. The growing middle-class 'twee' movement appears to have elements of asexuality, if not outright fear of sexuality.

I'd love to read more, when you somewhere you can paste links.
 

Filigree

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Long post, will circle back to Cleis at end

Okay, back on the desktop system, so it's linky time.

The Arts & Letters Daily essay about 'twee' that caught my eye. I don't agree with everything the writer says. But I do note that my own aversion to unremitting 'cute' and 'soft' showed up very early in my childhood, and certainly informs my reading and writing choices today.

An asexuality website that mentions twee.

A HuffPo aside about second-week earnings of the Fifty Shades movie.

Another HuffPo piece, published before the Fifty Shades movie released, with some interesting observations about what the movie (in contrast to the books) might do for young women's sexuality. The director apparently sparred with E.L. James during filming, to weight the power dynamic more in Ana's favor (true of real BDSM relationships, and sadly lacking in the books.)

From the vantage point of my late forties, I have seen how attitudes to actual adventure have changed over the years. Even with the AIDS scare, the mid-eighties were a wild time. But as employment patterns shifted, college costs and student debt rose, and real wage gains remained stagnant for most of the American working population, I noticed that my younger colleagues and friends were not cutting loose as much - if at all.

Their college focus was not about discovering themselves, but about getting high-enough-paying skills and degrees that they could pay off debt and have some security. They worried about dropping high-risk teen activities like skateboarding and surfing, because they recognized they were one medical emergency from bankruptcy. Many of them came to twee movements apparently out of a sense of safety, peace, and childhood nostalgia.

My ten or so friends who are really twee fall solidly into lower to upper middle-class upbringings. They tend not to read graphic erotica, or at least don't admit it. My friends who grew up in rougher areas, with more financial uncertainty, may be more open to sexuality, but they are just as focused on financial stability over random encounters in clubs.

These are great conditions for romance and sexual tension, for demisexual relationships, for asexual friendships - but completely opposite in worldview from raw erotica and the more graphic erotic romance stories.

Violet Blue and Allison Tyler, along with countless other fearless erotica and erotic romance writers, have been open and honest about sex writing and lifestyles. Cleis Press was one among many small publishers who forged respected markets out a genre 'ghetto' that many lit-fic and light romance publishers ignored or insulted.

But now Fifty Shades is just the most visible of properties bringing erotica and erotic romance to mainstream audiences. Like the gentrification of raunchy, seedy art neighborhoods, I worry that Big Five and intermediate publishers will push the small quirky presses aside. Or buy them out and give them the Disney focus group treatment, swabbing the grime off and making the leftovers palatable to wider markets.

But focus group readers in those more-polished markets may not know great erotica and erotic romance to begin with, so I'd side-eye publishers who rely too much on them.

Whether I seriously consider Cleis again depends on what Start does with the imprint in the next year.
 

Clairels

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Here's Violet Blue's post about Best Women's Erotica 2015. There are a bunch more authors speaking up in the comments.

Alison Tyler's post about having 20 of her ebooks pulled because of a contract issue.

I received word from an editor with whom I had contracted a short for an antho that Cleis would now not be moving forward with the antho, or two other anthologies that she'd contracted with them before the sale. She hasn't posted about it publicly anywhere, though.

Thanks for posting the links! There's some pretty scary stuff here from what I can tell, especially for the longtime Cleis antho editors, but on the other hand, who knows whether any of this will apply to my situation?

Like much of publishing these days, only time will tell.
 

thethinker42

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I don't want to get TOO far off topic, but...

From the vantage point of my late forties, I have seen how attitudes to actual adventure have changed over the years. Even with the AIDS scare, the mid-eighties were a wild time. But as employment patterns shifted, college costs and student debt rose, and real wage gains remained stagnant for most of the American working population, I noticed that my younger colleagues and friends were not cutting loose as much - if at all.

Their college focus was not about discovering themselves, but about getting high-enough-paying skills and degrees that they could pay off debt and have some security. They worried about dropping high-risk teen activities like skateboarding and surfing, because they recognized they were one medical emergency from bankruptcy. Many of them came to twee movements apparently out of a sense of safety, peace, and childhood nostalgia.

...it may also be that from the vantage point of your late forties, you're not seeing it up close and personal anymore. Or it may just be that you and I have run in very different circles because of our geographic differences.

Because for this mid-thirty-something, I agree with your economic observations, but not the cultural ones. Not even a little. Yes, there is a sense of "OMG I need to get a job in a field that will make decent money," but that's hardly stopping anyone from partying, risk-taking, and adventures. If anything, they might curtail some things because of money (going out boozing is expensive), but I can honestly say I've never known anyone who gave up skateboarding (or anything like it) because they were one medical emergency away from bankruptcy. That includes the younger generation in the military. They know full well that doing something stupid or getting hurt can end their military career -- leaving them in a world of financial hurt -- but that's not exactly stopping them.

As for not being as sexually wild and adventurous? Oh lord. No. Spend a little time on Tinder, and then tell me people aren't as wild and adventurous as they used to be. If anything, people are more careful (condoms, etc), and they tend to be more discreet because camera phones and social media have the potential to ruin a career. And getting involved in some wilder, more adventurous things (kink, multiple partners, what have you)...I'd be willing to bet that stuff is on the rise because people have more access to information about it, and can access partners more discreetly. Which also means it's kept more on the down-low (see above about camera phones).

Yeah, people are more concerned with securing their futures than they used to be, and for good reason. But you and I must live in very, very different worlds, because I am NOT seeing the same things you are.
 

Filigree

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I see a bit in AZ from the ASU crowd (though they party less than they did even ten years ago), and the $30K-a-year-millionaires keeping up appearances in Scottsdale. But my vocational school friends are much less physically adventurous than I'd expect. But a number of them read lots of kink. :Shrug: