Units of magic measurement, and associated problems

K_Woods · May 17, 2009

I'm trying to find an effective way to quantify magic power (termed 'aether' so far, though I want to change that name) in my current novel setting, but without going into the realm of the ridiculous. To better explain: the setting has an empire sitting on the cusp of Magitek, and magic is approached with a mindset that could be labeled scientific. Aether is external, running in currents below the surface, and naturally inert. People can draw on aether and shape it to their purposes (yes, this includes the fantasy staple fireball, though that takes enough power that it's fairly rare -- but more on that in a bit).

Different people have different capability for conducting (not sure that's the word I want, either), and the government of the Magitek-ish empire grades people and actively recruits those above a certain threshhold.

However, to do this, there has to be some standard unit of magic power, so it can be measured. After some thought, I decided that the base unit would be the amount of aether required to heat a cup of water from frozen to boiling. It takes a lot more than that to sling the classical fireball, and people naturally tend toward one particular kind of usage, so not everyone who can conduct that much power can throw fireballs (but, conversely, might be able to freeze someone in a block of ice, or project an emotion to everyone within a 20' radius, or carve a block of marble without physical tools, or...you get the idea).

Cue Spirited Debate with husband about how much energy that actually is, complete with figuring out how many grams are in a cup and calculating an approximate value for how many calories that would represent. Geekiness aside, this drove home the point that I need to make sure the standard energy unit isn't too large. Also, that I'm not quoting crazy numbers for how much energy would go into a fireball -- or, more pertinent to the plot, erasing someone's memory.

Is the current "1 c. freeze to boil" standard reasonable? How much energy would seem reasonable for large applications like the examples mentioned (or can I get away with "Whatever sounds good")? Am I getting fantasy in people's science fiction, or science fiction in people's fantasy? Did I play too much Final Fantasy VI as a youngster?

TheIT · May 17, 2009

Hmmm...

I like the idea of trying to measure magic by matching it to a non-magical task, but you might want to have more than one measure. For example, heat might be measured by candleflames - how much power does it take to light a candle? Or move an object of x weight y distance?

Seems like there would be "macro" and "micro" powers. Some people might excel in the big booms, while others are more suited to juggling grains of sand.

If you take the metric system as an example, the standard for each measurement is rather small, but the prefixes allow comparisons.

In any case, you might want to dance around giving specific measurements for tasks in the narrative, though as a writer you'll need to keep consistent. As a reader, I'm more interested in what happens when things go wrong.

Other questions: what happens if someone attempts to exceed their threshhold? Do they fry their brain or ability to wield magic?

How does a person measure how much magic they can handle? Is it like the Calvin & Hobbes cartoon where Calvin asks how they measure weight capacity for bridges?

Dommo · May 17, 2009

To me it would kind of depend on the scale and desnity of magical energy. E.g., does it take a swimming pool full of the stuff to do something useful, or does it take a cup?

Perhaps have a unit like the "mag" where a mag is some amount of magic that it takes to raise a certain amount of water a degree in whatever temperature system they use.

This way you can simply scale the mag for your purposes. If your mag is "amount of energy to raise 100,000 gallons 1 degree" then you know that a micro-mag will raise 1/10th of a gallon 1 degree. Something like that might work.

K_Woods · May 18, 2009

The threshhold isn't something that can be exceeded, per se -- it's a fixed innate cap. I'm trying to think of a good comparison. Maybe -- think of it like a water faucet. Conducting would be like turning the faucet on...but you can't turn it past a certain point (you can turn it less than full, though), and it's not going to damage the tap. (Although now you have me thinking of some very bizarre instances where, just maybe... ! TheIT, you just gave me a very evil idea that ties in nicely with what's developing.)

What will cause trouble is long-term exertion, especially at maximum strength; it's physically and mentally draining to maintain that sort of power. Sure, the imperial military has access to cart-sized hailstones and fireballs and magic-related psychological warfare and other fun things, but those people get tired -- and quickly, if they aren't careful. A magic user who pushes themselves too hard can die, yes, but it's not a matter of current overload KABLOOIE!, it's closer to the tale of that messenger from the battle of Marathon.

Right now the base unit is strictly a measurement of the amount of aether (with devices available that measure the quantity drawn current, independent of end application). As for choosing the standard, I was influenced by the idea of water being used in the past (real world past, I mean) for measurement, as well as domestic application for fire (namely, cooking) -- which is what most people with fire affinity will be doing in this setting. The main thing that separates different 'grades' of people is how much aether is drawn over a given time interval. Would it be better to integrate time into the unit of measurement?

Dommo, I hadn't thought about the actual physical dimensions. Thanks for reminding me. I can say this much: definitely not a pool full of the stuff to heat one silly cup of water.

I don't know how much of this will go into the foreground, but I do know that I have a tendency to lock up when I run into a detail not covered by my worldbuilding notes until I sort it out. I'm not good at plucking something out of the air, slapping it into the manuscript, and continuing on without it gnawing at me.

Manix · May 18, 2009

K_Woods said:
Different people have different capability for conducting "Channeling," perhaps?(not sure that's the word I want, either), and the government of the Magitek-ish empire grades people and actively recruits those above a certain threshhold.

Cue Spirited Debate with husband about how much energy that actually is, complete with figuring out how many grams are in a cup and calculating an approximate value for how many calories that would represent. I'm seeing this might cross over into the realm of sci-fantasy, perhaps.Geekiness aside, this drove home the point that I need to make sure the standard energy unit isn't too large. Also, that I'm not quoting crazy numbers for how much energy would go into a fireball -- or, more pertinent to the plot, erasing someone's memory.

Is the current "1 c. freeze to boil" standard reasonable? How much energy would seem reasonable for large applications like the examples mentioned (or can I get away with "Whatever sounds good")? Am I getting fantasy in people's science fiction, or science fiction in people's fantasy? Yeah, sci-fantasy is a legit genre.Did I play too much Final Fantasy VI as a youngster?

Sounds intriguing!

SPMiller · May 18, 2009

The first question I have is, how do the details of this system affect the story? Although it could be nice to know, it seems more like something you don't need to fully describe, either to yourself or to your readers.

Tburger · May 18, 2009

It sounds interesting and I second SP's suggestion. One word of caution here: medichlorians.

Izunya · May 18, 2009

Tburger said:
It sounds interesting and I second SP's suggestion. One word of caution here: medichlorians.

See, I think that if the midichlorians had been there from the beginning, it would be less egregious. It would give the universe a totally different feel, of course, but it could still be fun. The reason midichlorians are hated is not only that they feel like an arbitrary addition; they also change the "feel" of a universe that a lot of people loved as it was. It's like going back and declaring that Lord of the Rings was really post-apocalyptic and the rings were actually nanomachine control interfaces or some such balonium.

I think that boiling a cup of water would be a fairly good unit (if you're stuck on what to call it, you could always name it after some technomagic pioneer, like the watt or the ohm). Even if your unit isn't the right size for some things, you can always multiply or divide it to get something useful. You need two kilothaums to produce a fireball worthy of the name; it takes a centithaum to levitate a feather for a second. (Don't use thaum. That belongs to Terry Pratchett.)

(About the fireballs: it seems to me that a nicely organized army might actually use different energy fireballs for different purposes, much as Earth armies used to use cannon. I mean, a four-pounder is anti-personnel—I think, I'm not a military buff—but you want something much bigger to attack a castle. Likewise, a two kilothaum fireball will take out a six foot swath, but if you want a rolling juggernaut of death that will kill absolutely everything, you're looking at ten or twelve kilothaums—and good luck finding someone who can actually do that, much less do it twice in a row.)

Er. Can you tell I'm liking this concept? I don't generally go into long parenthetical speculations unless I think something is pretty cool.

One flaw that I can see is that an inexperienced mage might use more aether than they have to, sort of the same way an inexperienced swimmer burns a lot more calories in extraneous motion and pointless splashing than an Olympic athlete would. Since you can't take the human out of the equation, you'd have to base it on what an experienced mage would do. Still, if you're at the beginning of an industrial revolution, there'll naturally be a few kinks to work out.

Izunya

K_Woods · May 18, 2009

Oh gosh. You said it. THE M WORD.
:scared:

But I have to agree with Izunya, the reason midichlorians were so reviled was a) it came out of left field and b) it tried to rationalize something that had been presented as mystical. On the other hand, this is something I need to keep in mind from the other direction. So thanks for the warning.

The thought processes that led to needing a measurement, ultimately, were as follows:
-So, the government grades individuals based on how much aether they can draw at once (the prevailing thought being more = better, and with some reason), and the top tier or two are sought out by the empire (with varying degrees of persuasion/bribery/coercion). (This part is key because it has pushed the main character's life in a direction it would definitely not have taken if she was Jo Average Citizen, and some part of this will be visible in the story.)
-That means they need some way to quantify power.
-Because not everyone uses it in a way that produces physical, tangible results, the amount of current drawn over a given span of time would be a more practical measure.
-So how does it get measured?

Izunya said:
(Don't use thaum. That belongs to Terry Pratchett.)

I would have dopeslapped the first person who suggested it, for that very reason. So no worries.

I think I'm starting to see why worldbuilding is compared to an iceberg...the reader only needs to see the tip, but the ~90% they don't see is still important. It definitely helps me keep things consistent. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a fun mental exercise, too, but these are things that have been bugging me because I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll have to deal with them at some point, even if it never shows up on the page.

Thanks, everybody. I think for now I won't stress too much about it and leave the measurement standard (and associated details) as-is. It sounds like it's good enough for now. (And the perfectionist part of me can't believe I just said that!)

Units of magic measurement, and associated problems

K_Woods

9 of 10 Overlords prefer Evil Pie!

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

Dommo

On Mac's double secret probation.

K_Woods

9 of 10 Overlords prefer Evil Pie!

Manix

Mutatis mutandis

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Tburger

Wahoowa

Izunya

K_Woods

9 of 10 Overlords prefer Evil Pie!