Protestant and Catholic difference

SirOtter · Apr 6, 2009

Cradle Southern Baptist here who eventually let his cradle Episcopalian wife convert him. We have many former Catholic members in our church, all of whom feel very comfortable with our liturgy. There are a couple more differences, as I understand:

Clergy, male or female, may marry. (That might have been mentioned)

We consider all the faithful departed to be saints, not just those who've been canonized first or whose feast days we recognize (though not necessarily observe).

Your dig at Baptists for what they call the 'security of the believer' isn't all that off base. A lot do justify bad behavior on that basis, although it's not at all what the doctrine was intended for. The idea was that true repentence can always restore right standing, without having to go through ecclesiastical courts or other such rituals. As noted, there are numerous places in the epistles (James, Hebrews, I John, etc.) where it's pointed out that works are the evidence of faith, and that faith without works is empty.

BTW, why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

It looks too much like dancing.

OpheliaRevived · Apr 6, 2009

Protestants don't recognize the Pope and do not pray to Catholic Saints. Protestants believe Mary was a virgin, until she came together with Joseph as husband and wife and therefore had the children mentioned in the bible. Only Christs' birth, according to the protestant belief, was divine. They also don't believe that Mary is divine, merely blessed.

Those are just fundamental differences. There are so many sects that you really have to limit it to one specific church. Are we talking Church of England?

BardSkye · Apr 6, 2009

SirOtter said:
BTW, why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

It looks too much like dancing.

Ah, but at least they know how to sing!

Have you thought of asking some of the people in AW's Religions section if any have studied this sort of thing?

girlyswot · Apr 6, 2009

cooeedownunder said:
I have been trying to find something that would cause internal conflict between my charachters based on their beliefs, but all in all they seem extremly similar. I have been trying to work out a way that their Religious beliefs would keep them apart.

Oh dear. If you can't find a way to make a conflict between a Catholic and a Protestant, then... oh, dear. You really, really need to do some serious research if this is going to be in your story.

The most obvious issue, especially in the 19th century (there has been a bit more toing and froing about this in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries) is that Catholics held that only Catholics could be saved. Salvation was in and through the Church. So your Catholic guy has been taught that the Protestant woman is a heretic and damned to hell. Of course, Protestants believed that Catholics were heretics too. Some potential conflict there, perhaps?

That's going to hit home in terms of their choices about where they could get married and what the status of their children would be. Protestants have generally been compelled to allow their children to be raised Catholic - but if she's serious about her faith, that's not going to be an easy choice.

During the nineteenth century, Catholicism became much 'higher' than it had previously been. This was when the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was made official (i.e. that not only was Mary a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but that she herself was born of a virgin). If that's happening around the time of your story, then it will be very easy for your Protestant to dismiss Catholicism as superstitious nonsense, while the Catholic character will be struggling with issues of Papal authority. Oh, you should also check, but I think they were still saying Latin masses in Catholic churches then. That would be another point of contention - a Protestant wouldn't see the point of mumbling words you don't understand. The Catholic, on the other hand, would want to emphasise the value of tradition and continuity, and the role of the priest in mediating between God and the congregation. For the Protestant, it's all about direct access.

Others have mentioned the faith/works issue and the consubstantiation/transubstantiation/real presence issue at the communion meal. Those were the crucial issues in the sixteenth century but I'd doubt whether ordinary churchgoers in the nineteenth century could have articulated them, particularly not the latter. Most can't now.

cooeedownunder · Apr 6, 2009

Thank you everybody and girlyswot - yes you are correct with that I need to research to include this - google and here has been my first spot - I accidentially began writing about the first Catholic church in a town, I know the history of very well, which became the 2nd Catholic church in Australia - I had no intention of writing about religion but have somehow fallen into it to degree.

angeliz2k · Apr 6, 2009

To be honest, in a lot of places and times, the mere fact of one being Protestant and the other Catholic would be more than enough conflict. They'd be unlikely to care for each other as human beings in a lot of cases. Even if they came to care for each other, they probably would be put off by the other's religion. And if they weren't everyone around them would be.

Definitely do your research, but seriously there's enough conflict here without needing to touch a single theological point.

Tocotin · Apr 6, 2009

girlyswot said:
This was when the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was made official (i.e. that not only was Mary a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but that she herself was born of a virgin).

Sorry to disagree, but this is a common misconception of the Immaculate Conception (lol). This dogma has nothing to do with Mary's virginity. It states that she was born without original sin:

We pronounce, declare and define, unto the glory of the holy and indivisible Trinity, the honour and ornament of the holy virgin, the Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith and the increase of the Christian religion by the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, and in Our own authority, that the doctrine which holds the Blessed Virgin Mary to have been, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ the Saviour of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin, was revealed by God, and is, therefore, to be firmly and constantly believed by the faithful. (Decree of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary)

Marina Snow · Apr 6, 2009

pdr said:
Nope. Not true at all. A Protestant has to follow the precepts Jesus taught and live them. That's been true since Martin Luther.

Oh? Every Protestant I have ever met and heard on TV has proclaimed that all they have to do is to "believe" in Jesus.

And did you know that Protestantism was founded by Luther on the very belief that you can "sin and sin boldly" and still go to Heaven? I can give you the historical reference if you like.

Marina Snow · Apr 6, 2009

Suse said:
..Good actions are a result of faith and cannot independently get you salvation, as with the Indulgences that so troubled Martin Luther.

Luther talked to Satan and wanted to end with the Mass, the Holy Eucharist, and the papacy. The abuse of indulgences of those times were merely an open door to Luther's evil.

Don Allen · Apr 6, 2009

Mike is Irish Catholic, Pat is English Protestant, they are both brick layers working across the street from a well known Whore House in the heart of Ireland.
Mike looks up and sees a Jewish Rabbi climbing the stairs to the house of ill repute and says to Pat, "Shame of it all, a leader of the Jewish faith going into a place like that".
Pat shakes his head in disbelief.

A few moments later Pat's Protestant Minister is climbing the same stairs and entering the bordello as Mike just shakes his head in disgust while Pat is visable shaken at the sight.

Within moments, Mike's Catolic Priest is heading up those very same stairs when Mike slaps Pat on the back and proclaims with a heavy brogue "Sure-as-can-be Pat, there must be someone awful sick in that building, awful sick"

All you need to know regarding the difference.........

Marina Snow · Apr 6, 2009

pdr said:
No wonder, is it, that we have religious wars?

Wars, religious or otherwise, begin because of men who desire power and who have an uncontrollable nature for violence.

Having a discussion on a forum message board is healthy dialogue. What do you want, for people to all just 'get along' with superficial pleasantries and people-pleasing BS?

cooeedownunder · Apr 6, 2009

Marina Snow said:
Oh? Every Protestant I have ever met and heard on TV has proclaimed that all they have to do is to "believe" in Jesus.

And did you know that Protestantism was founded by Luther on the very belief that you can "sin and sin boldly" and still go to Heaven? I can give you the historical reference if you like.

I'm a catholic and I think pdr was merely stating that both some Catholics and Protestants think the same of each other in reverse - regardless if one is right or wrong.

And I think her statement from a Protestant point of view in regards to Catholics and confession could be precieved as the same thing. I have a slightly different understanding of confession that if I sin, I need to truely rependt, not just attend confession, but regardless I can see why our confession could be precieved another way - and having said that, it is some of these differences that has caused much conflict and suspicion at times between both parties.

I also think pdrs comments on regligious wars was clearly correct - even on this forum we have some people who believe very strongly they are correct in their perception of the other, when I, at the end of the day, see very little difference when it comes to the fact we have the same God, but see the meaning of the text of the Bible differently.

Marina Snow · Apr 6, 2009

cooeedownunder said:
I'm a catholic and I think pdr was merely stating that both some Catholics and Protestants think the same of each other in reverse - regardless if one is right or wrong.

You may be correct here, but as far as Luther goes, pdr is wrong. This is not my opinion, it is a historical fact.

I can see why our confession could be precieved another way - and having said that, it is some of these differences that has caused much conflict and suspicion at times between both parties.

Yes, I can see why too, but if people just assume and don't take the time to educate themselves, then they will continue to hold the incorrect view.

cooeedownunder · Apr 6, 2009

Don Allen said:
Mike is Irish Catholic, Pat is English Protestant, they are both brick layers working across the street from a well known Whore House in the heart of Ireland.
Mike looks up and sees a Jewish Rabbi climbing the stairs to the house of ill repute and says to Pat, "Shame of it all, a leader of the Jewish faith going into a place like that".
Pat shakes his head in disbelief.

A few moments later Pat's Protestant Minister is climbing the same stairs and entering the bordello as Mike just shakes his head in disgust while Pat is visable shaken at the sight.

Within moments, Mike's Catolic Priest is heading up those very same stairs when Mike slaps Pat on the back and proclaims with a heavy brogue "Sure-as-can-be Pat, there must be someone awful sick in that building, awful sick"

All you need to know regarding the difference.........

At the end of the day I agree there is no difference with any man on earth, but just a difference in the way we live our life, and our beliefs of where we come from, and where we are going to after we leave this earth.

cooeedownunder · Apr 6, 2009

Marina Snow said:
Wars, religious or otherwise, begin because of men who desire power and who have an uncontrollable nature for violence.

Having a discussion on a forum message board is healthy dialogue. What do you want, for people to all just 'get along' with superficial pleasantries and people-pleasing BS?

Again, I am thinking that you may be misreading pdrs remark about religious wars - as for the forums here, I don't think anyone is expected to agree necessary on every point, that wasn't the purpose of the thread, and I think we need to remember that we can't see the other people, and that sometimes the tone of a post may be read wrong, and it is very unlikely that anyone is attempting to be anything but pleasant.

cherubsmummy · Apr 7, 2009

In early Australian history the hostility in Ireland was often simply transferred to Australia. Most of the Irish Catholic convicts were political dissenters, shipped off to the Colonies to reduce their voice in Ireland. Your characters would have vast baggage to work through, particularly the Irish Catholic, who would have, most likely, a tremendous disgust for the 'noble' heritage of the Protestant lady. You would have enormous potential for conflict if you take a look at Irish history around the time that he came over to Australia. I would probably not focus on the religious differences so much as the political differences between an Irish commoner and a British aristocrat. But, of course, that's just my opinion, and not worth the paper it's printed on

I'd love to have a read of your novel when it's ready for betaing. I am also working on an Australian colonial novel, though set in North Queensland around 1880.

Emma

pdr · Apr 7, 2009

Goodness gracious me.

To have a discussion one must be prepared to discuss and listen and think.

Anyway Cooee, why don't you look at the social situation of the day in Australia. Catholicism at your date was still illegal in the British Commonwealth and Catholics were still regarded as the lowest of the low. There is a wide range of possibilities here for you to pick from horrified parents, angry priests, social group shunning etc. Have fun.

cooeedownunder · Apr 7, 2009

cherubsmummy said:
In early Australian history the hostility in Ireland was often simply transferred to Australia. Most of the Irish Catholic convicts were political dissenters, shipped off to the Colonies to reduce their voice in Ireland. Your characters would have vast baggage to work through, particularly the Irish Catholic, who would have, most likely, a tremendous disgust for the 'noble' heritage of the Protestant lady. You would have enormous potential for conflict if you take a look at Irish history around the time that he came over to Australia. I would probably not focus on the religious differences so much as the political differences between an Irish commoner and a British aristocrat. But, of course, that's just my opinion, and not worth the paper it's printed on

I'd love to have a read of your novel when it's ready for betaing. I am also working on an Australian colonial novel, though set in North Queensland around 1880.

Emma

Emma, although backstory and another WIP I have placed on the backburner, my MC is an Australian born Catholic to Irish convicts and he ends up being raised by a Scottish Prostestant when his father dies and his mother marries this Scottish fellow. I am still fiddling with my timeline and this Catholics past slightly, due to the actual dates of the different churches having been built and the logic of how religious and the depth of his faith could be after being given religious instruction from his mother while being forced to a Prostestant mass (I instantly sensed conflict there but had no understanding of Prostestant faith and hence why I posted this thread) and I have been playing with the plight of the Irish and his parents and the marked impression this could have on him, and I have been looking at the history of the Irish at the time his parents would have been transported.

My story currently starts at the time it is consider the first priest were official being sent to Australia.

I had originally thought that a larger portion of the Irish prisioners where also political prisioners but that is not truly the case. Up until 1803 there were apparently just under 3000 Irish convicts of which around 600 or approimately a third, were considered to be truly political prisioners with few after this date and I do concede that is lot but not the majority.

My male MC parents were political prisioners so I do have a bit to play with there but I have found it very hard not to ignore the fact that the majority of this town at that time was Catholic and that the second Catholic church in Australia was built in this town and still stands today along with the Anglican church which is now considered the oldest in Australia.

I had no intention of writing about churches or religion but I feel that since I have brought up the issue the Catholics had getting this Church built that it has for some reason become important to me to explore what the issues were and of course find true inner conflict for my charachters apart from them just disliking each other- as soon as I started writing about these two churches I could see there was a need to explore this much.

And thank you for the beta offer, we should keep in touch and exchange as I am greatly interested in stories set in the 1800s in Australia but they are few and far between in the sense of what I have enjoyed reading - many of them have ignored some important parts of our history and completly focused on the politics of the time.

waylander · Apr 7, 2009

Scottish protestant is potentially pretty different to CofE/CofS. Which denomination did the stepfather belong to?

cooeedownunder · Apr 7, 2009

pdr said:
To have a discussion one must be prepared to discuss and listen and think.

Anyway Cooee, why don't you look at the social situation of the day in Australia. Catholicism at your date was still illegal in the British Commonwealth and Catholics were still regarded as the lowest of the low. There is a wide range of possibilities here for you to pick from horrified parents, angry priests, social group shunning etc. Have fun.

Yes, there is much to play with - but at this time only 50 to 100 people in the town to play with - lolol - but I have the entire state, and country, to move into if need be and of course our founding town which is only a few hours drive away being Sydney Town - the first priests arrived as convicts in 1800 and for the next 3 - 4 years one of those convicts was allowed to provide mass to the Catholics in a limited sense despite Catholicism being illegal in England until 1829. Even in the 1950s and probably beyond we were still encountering prejudice in Australia.

History is great stuff - as I never realised the problem my Catholic ancestors must have had until I dawdled into this WIP

cooeedownunder · Apr 7, 2009

waylander said:
Scottish protestant is potentially pretty different to CofE/CofS. Which denomination did the stepfather belong to?

Here you have me BUT...

What I deteremined in my research for my other WIP - (the stepfather of this MC) is that although he could have been English, and possibly an English Catholic, in the marines that came in the first lot of fleets to Australia, the likely hood is that he was an English or Scottish Prosestant, based on land grants given in the area, and a marine in the Kings navy - as most of the land grants given in those first days were to marines and I can find no evidence in that area that one was a Catholic at that time.

So I guess, if there is a Protestant branch that is the furtherest away from the Catholic religion - he needs to be that - I never realised there was such a great difference until I started the thread.

cherubsmummy · Apr 7, 2009

I confess, your research into Irish convicts has gone a lot deeper than mine. I was attempting to remember (badly) from earlier reading. I wish I could remember where I'd read it, but my understanding was that a lot of the convictions were convenient excuses to transport trouble makers, even though they weren't purely political convictions. It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into your story

This thread has provoked some interesting discussion. It amazes me how different views can be. I was raised Anglican, and spent my high school years in a very Catholic town. It was all a bit strange to me until I married my Roman Catholic husband and saw things from the other side of the fence.

I'll pm you about the beta thing

Emma

waylander · Apr 7, 2009

cooeedownunder said:
Here you have me BUT...

What I deteremined in my research for my other WIP - (the stepfather of this MC) is that although he could have been English, and possibly an English Catholic, in the marines that came in the first lot of fleets to Australia, the likely hood is that he was an English or Scottish Prosestant, based on land grants given in the area, and a marine in the Kings navy - as most of the land grants given in those first days were to marines and I can find no evidence in that area that one was a Catholic at that time.

So I guess, if there is a Protestant branch that is the furtherest away from the Catholic religion - he needs to be that - I never realised there was such a great difference until I started the thread.

The Church of Scotland in the early 19th century was strongly influenced by Presbyterianism and the teaching of John Knox (a follower of Calvin). There was considerable turmoil within the Church culminating in a schism in 1834. There is plenty of scope within that movement for anti-Catholic sentiment.

donroc · Apr 7, 2009

Catholics used to burn heretics; Protestants used to burn witches.

cooeedownunder · Apr 7, 2009

waylander said:
The Church of Scotland in the early 19th century was strongly influenced by Presbyterianism and the teaching of John Knox (a follower of Calvin). There was considerable turmoil within the Church culminating in a schism in 1834. There is plenty of scope within that movement for anti-Catholic sentiment.

This is interesting, and because I am about to go to bed, and it is very late this side of the world, I am wondering when this turmoil started as my story is starting prior to this date but it it does tie into the building of my Catholic church - and gee, I am hoping some majic button writes the story for me before I wake up...

ETA: just having fun - I can see you are leading me on are worthy journey

Protestant and Catholic difference

Il Cavaliere Marino

Real Men Have Gills

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

Grateful for the day

never mind the shorty

deceives

Seeking a Sanctuary of Intelligence

Grateful for the day

Grateful for the day

Grateful for the day

Experienced Lurker

Grateful for the day

Who's going for a beer?

Grateful for the day

Grateful for the day

Experienced Lurker

Who's going for a beer?

Historicals and Horror rule

Grateful for the day