Israeli soldiers admit to shooting unarmed civilians

dmytryp

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Well, I was so touched by your confidence in the NYT, BoP. But then I remebered something I read several days ago, and it made me laugh so hard. Because, it turns out that the NYT mid-East correspondent Nicholas Kristof takes his analysis of the Me from... wait for it... a blogger named Juan Cole.
Nicholas Kristof has finally revealed his secret. In his Thursday ramble entitled "The Daily Me," he explains, almost as if he knows the topic desperately requires an explanation, why his Middle East commentary is really a rehash of Juan Cole. That's whose web-site he reads to get his opinions on the region: "The blog I turn to for insight into Middle East news is often Professor Juan Cole's, because he's smart, well-informed and sensible--in other words, I often agree with his take."

Anyway, I'll take a blogger who follows these standards over any media, any day.
 

Jerry Cornelius

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Isn't the question "how to end this peacefully?" intimately connected to the question "who is keeping it going?".

No, not at all.

I am not exactly clear as to what you meant by the bolded part.

Simply that the discussion is important.

I also disagree with the basic premise of your first paragraph, because it is not supported by historical facts or by comparisons to other places in the ME and the world.

How so?
 

Bird of Prey

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Well, I was so touched by your confidence in the NYT, BoP. But then I remebered something I read several days ago, and it made me laugh so hard. Because, it turns out that the NYT mid-East correspondent Nicholas Kristof takes his analysis of the Me from... wait for it... a blogger named Juan Cole.


Then maybe he's got a good source. So what?? A blogger is still not on the line for what he or she says unless a personal lawsuit is brought, and even then it's tough going, because bloggers are all over the place. It's pretty hard to bring a suit against somebody in Sri Lanka when you're in Nebraska.

All I'm saying, Dm, is that you take all these "facts" from bloggers and quote them at times as if they're gospel; I prefer news organizations that have to at least answer for their mistakes by - at the minimum - retractions if they want to stay credible.

And you know, bloggers blog because they want to express a point of view; they are not reporting; they are editorializing. I think you need to keep that in mind. Parroting your point of view doesn't make a blogger any more factual than anybody else.
 
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dmytryp

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Then maybe he's got a good source. So what?? A blogger is still not on the line for what he or she says unless a personal lawsuit is brought, and even then it's tough going, because bloggers are all over the place. It's pretty hard to bring a suit against somebody in Sri Lanka when you're in Nebraska.

All I'm saying, Dm, is that you take all these "facts" from bloggers and quote them at times as if they're gospel; I prefer news organizations that have to at least answer for their mistakes by - at the minimum - retractions if they want to stay credible.

And you know, bloggers blog because they want to express a point of view; they are not reporting; they are editorializing. I think you need to keep that in mind. Parroting your point of view doesn't make a blogger any more factual than anybody else.
The line between "news" and "editorials" in the newspapers is blurred today, anyway. And many, many bloggers do a much better job at researching than the newspapers do. I mean, how many times did LGF expose hauxses, lies and poor reporting in the media? The media has gone sloppy and lazy. I wouldn't trust one media sourse on the ME, anyway. They all use local stringers and interpreters. And those guys bring their own biases and many times see no contradiction in inserting their pov into their reporting. Here is an example.
As for me quoting bloggers. 1. I don't go quoting any bloggers, just the oens who give a good analysis (even if you don't agree with it, and I don't always agree with them). 2. Most of the time the links I provide contain inside original stories and the only reason I link to the blog and not to the story itself is because the additional analysis adds something in the process, imo.
But again, you disagree -- that's fine. Show where you think the analysis I give is wrong. Bring your own sources that provide a better analysis.
 

Bird of Prey

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Here is a detailed blogpost (yes blogpost) with about a dozen of relevant links to the original stories inside.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1647

And here is the comments of the IDF chief of staff
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3690794,00.html

I'll address the IDF comments by saying that his skepticism is no surprise. I doubt an Israel investigation will be "thorough" or maybe the word would be accurate, given how the military is consistently defensive and "minimalist" regarding its conduct.

I did notice this on the same page:

Rights group: Israeli troops broke medical ethics / ReutersPhysicians for Human Rights-Israel issues harsh report against IDF's conduct during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, saying Israel 'did not allow evacuation of injured civilians, prevented medical teams from reaching wounded'. PHR also reports 'dangerous trend of increasing disregard for obligation to protect medical personnel'. . . .


Let me ask you something, Dm. Why would international organizations be biased against Israel?? I mean really, that's your contention. If there is a critical story about Israeli military conduct, your immediate reacton is to cry foul, claiming bias, and that the media or that members of the international community are tainting the true picture.

Now before you throw another blogger up there - that I'm not going to read because it's a blogger - I want to hear from you.
 
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dmytryp

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Let me ask you something, Dm. Why would international organizations be biased against Israel?? I mean really, that's your contention. If there is a critical story about Israeli military conduct, your immediate reacton is to cry foul, claiming bias, and that the media or that members of the international community are tainting the true picture.

Now before you throw another blogger up there - that I'm not going to read because it's a blogger - I want to hear from you.
Well. I am not familiar with this organisation specifically, so I can't say really. Though, during the operation the Red Cross said different things.
Amnesty has a long documented bias against Israel. So does HRW (which includes hiring people who prior were anti-israeli activists and a lot of contestable statements). A lot of time they make statements that they really have no expertise to make (like during this conflict they accused Israel of illegally using white phosphorus based on observation outside Gaza from undisclosed location). B'tselem which is basically the most quoted organisation in the West with regards to casualties numbers had been repeatedly caught on mistakes in this regard (and this didn't even happen by somebody with a intelligence clearence, but by bloggers who simply did research work by cross referencing different sources etc).
I think the problems stem from three factors. 1. A lot of these groups emply people who inherently either anti-israeli activists (many ties they are far left-wing socialists, communists etc, who harbor general anti-western sentiments, post-colonialism etc.) 2. The basic assumption for these groups many time is that war is inherently evil, and hence anybody who practuces war, even if it for justifiable reasons, is wrong and the real culprit. 3. Israel and the west are the only side that really cares what they have to say. The other side doesn't give a damn about the human rights, rules of war etc. They only use the terminology to attack the West, but they don't believe in it and don't practice it. So, just as I gleaned from indiriverflow, they simply have no way of confronting these organisations, so, instead they focus on Israel in the hopes to return it "back on track". The problem with this approach is that they inadvertently strenghten these very poisonous organisation. They strip away the ability of a country to defend itself and they hypocritically set impossible (absolute) moral standards for conduct that no country had ever been able to follow, and that indeed would result in more deaths if they were to be followed.

P.S. I am sometimes lazy and put up blogposts because they tell exatly (or very closely what I want to say), and I don't feel like typing a lot 9especially, given the fact that I post more than a bit from my work instead of, you know, working). So, I suggest you do take the time to read what I post, even if it is a blogpost. At least, if you want to understand my position.
And one final thing, we are probably different in this -- at this point I don't see much difference between bloggers and news organisations (at least in the op-ed pages, and for some bloggers). As I said, I'll take Lozowick's analysis over anything written in the papers any day. He both has the expertise, the skills and the knowledge (since he lives here). And he posts only about things he actually knows, unlike many newspapers that do "drive bys".

EDIT: By the way, PHR (palestinian human rights) is hardly an impartial international org. Though, it seems to enjot the "halo effect" from you
 
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Bird of Prey

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EDIT: By the way, PHR (palestinian human rights) is hardly an impartial international org. Though, it seems to enjot the "halo effect" from you

I know nothing about the PHR. No "halo effect." I posted it because it was on the same page as the COS' comments.

Re: blogging. Given your explanation, Dm, I understand, and will read the occasional blogger upon your request. However, I have another question for you, and again, would like your answer.

How do you think Israel can achieve peace??
 

dmytryp

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I know nothing about the PHR. No "halo effect." I posted it because it was on the same page as the COS' comments.

Re: blogging. Given your explanation, Dm, I understand, and will read the occasional blogger upon your request. However, I have another question for you, and again, would like your answer.

How do you think Israel can achieve peace??
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3413808&postcount=231

Vis-a-vis media vs. blogging. I think it is an interesting topic within itself. Maybe the mods can split this into a different discussion?
EDIT: One more thing for you to consider -- orgs like CAMERA, Honest Reporting etc (whose blogs I sometimes link to) sorang to life persicely for the reason that the media did a lousy job. They routinely hold the media accountable for printing bull. Honest Reporting forces retractions and corrections on almost a dayly basis. In order for this to happen they need to be meticulous witht the facts they present, otherwise, nobody would ever take them seriously.
 
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Bird of Prey

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http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3413808&postcount=231

Vis-a-vis media vs. blogging. I think it is an interesting topic within itself. Maybe the mods can split this into a different discussion?
EDIT: One more thing for you to consider -- orgs like CAMERA, Honest Reporting etc (whose blogs I sometimes link to) sorang to life persicely for the reason that the media did a lousy job. They routinely hold the media accountable for printing bull. Honest Reporting forces retractions and corrections on almost a dayly basis. In order for this to happen they need to be meticulous witht the facts they present, otherwise, nobody would ever take them seriously.


In other words, you want the Palestinians to take the initiative - although Israel continues to occupy - and the Israel settlements and fences. . . stay? And the Palestinians have to shut up about hating their occupiers. Dm, I think you're asking something out of the realm of realism because it's counter to basic human nature. Can you see that?
 

dmytryp

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In other words, you want the Palestinians to take the initiative - although Israel continues to occupy - and the Israel settlements and fences. . . stay? And the Palestinians have to shut up about hating their occupiers. Dm, I think you're asking something out of the realm of realism because it's counter to basic human nature. Can you see that?
Can you not see that asking Israelis to compromise their security after their previous concessions were met with violence is counter human nature. And what exactly is that I am asking is out of the realm of illogical? Stop attacking civillians? Stop teaching hate? This is pretty basic stuff. Without it, there is no real chance for peace.

EDIT: All those demands, by the way, were always presented in every signed agreement. The palestinians never acted upon them.
 

Bird of Prey

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Can you not see that asking Israelis to compromise their security after their previous concessions were met with violence is counter human nature. And what exactly is that I am asking is out of the realm of illogical? Stop attacking civillians? Stop teaching hate? This is pretty basic stuff. Without it, there is no real chance for peace.

EDIT: All those demands, by the way, were always presented in every signed agreement. The palestinians never acted upon them.

How bout Israeli settlers abandon settlements on Palestinian land and the fences are brought back to her proper borders, and no more bulldozing in East Jerusalem; the Palestinians stop all rocket attacks/suicide bombers for a year with the aid of an international intel organization to ferret out terrorists? In the mean time, an agreement is in place - so it has to be done prior - that Palestine receives remuneration or aid if you prefer that term to build a nation. Her water rights will be respected; her air space returned if there is demonstrable peace.
 

dmytryp

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How bout Israeli settlers abandon settlements on Palestinian land and the fences are brought back to her proper borders, and no more bulldozing in East Jerusalem; the Palestinians stop all rocket attacks/suicide bombers for a year with the aid of an international intel organization to ferret out terrorists? In the mean time, an agreement is in place - so it has to be done prior - that Palestine receives remuneration or aid if you prefer that term to build a nation. Her water rights will be respected; her air space returned if there is demonstrable peace.
Well, at least you demanded something from the palestinians. Though without cracking down on incitement you only postpone the problem by several years. And given the past, the palestinians have to show they actually changed (by deeds, not just words) and are prepared to co-exist with us prior to any concessions from us.

P.S. You really need to do your research vis-a-vis East Jerusalem. Otherwise, you look clueless (as I already mentioned)
 

cethklein

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How bout Israeli settlers abandon settlements on Palestinian land and the fences are brought back to her proper borders, and no more bulldozing in East Jerusalem; the Palestinians stop all rocket attacks/suicide bombers for a year with the aid of an international intel organization to ferret out terrorists? In the mean time, an agreement is in place - so it has to be done prior - that Palestine receives remuneration or aid if you prefer that term to build a nation. Her water rights will be respected; her air space returned if there is demonstrable peace.

That's a great idea. But here's the problem: all agreements must be backed up with some form of good faith. Every time Israel has offered them any concession, the Palestinians have used it against Israel. Israel abandoned some settlements. What did the Palestinians do? they used that land as staging grounds for more attacks. Would you give someone their land back if you knew they'd only use it to attack you? Hamas wants ALL of Israel, not just part, they want to "drive the infidel Zionists into the sea." Does that sound like they want peace to you? I know you're not going to hold Hamas accountable, I won't even bother asking you again to do so, but at least attempt to look at this all objectively. Hamas DOES NOT want land for Palestinians, they want land to stage their holy war because they think we're still living in the 12th century. Israel should make consessions, but not until they know it will be sae to do so. So yes, the Palestinians DO need to take initiative. Fatah and the rest of the Palestinian people MUST renounce Hamas. Yes it is hard to do that when Hamas rigs elections (that the UN ignores) and forces people at gunpoint to support them. But if enough people decided to make a stand, something would change.

The Palestinians keeps asking Israel to do things yet they won't invest effort in resolving their own problems too.
 

Jerry Cornelius

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How so?

There was palestinian terrorism when there wasn't one single settlement or occupation. Palestinian terrorism spiked every time Israel tried to make concessions.

What's the solution? More violence?
 

dmytryp

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What's the solution? More violence?
There is no immediate solution. Only managing the conflict. Until something fundamentally changes in the palestinian society. And not fighting and simply giving up is certainly no solution. But that's besides the point. You asked why I think your basic premise is wrong, I answered.

EDIT: The way to go as I see it -- for the moment forget about Gaza. We won't bomb Hamas into submission (it is doutbtful whether this is possible at all, and we lack the required ruthlessness to play by Hama Rules, anyway). We won't talk them into moderation, either (they are religious fanatics). So, untill something signifficant changes, blockade Gaza, allow only humanitarian aid inside, work on preventing smuggling and hit hard every against every agression to deter them for a while. The WB is another matter. US is already training their troops, and economically the WB is in a relatively good shape. So, the West (this needs to come from the West and not from Israel because of the animosity) needs to press the PA to make reforms. To bring down corruption, to build state institutions -- independent court system etc. etc. Then, when their troops ready, or if the Jordanians will be ready to help, they should slowly assume security reponsibilities. First, under IDF supervision, and then phase IDF's presence out, removing checkpoints etc. They need to make the real effort to rout terrorist activities. Otherwise, there is no political leader in Israel that would make further consessions under the current crisis.
That's the way forward, imo. Talks about final status can go on, but their implementation should be conditional on the success of this phase. Hopefully, the improving conditions in the WB, coupled with economical and international pressure would bring down Hamas in Gaza, and it can be then included together with the WB. All of this is, imo, years away.

Oh, almost forgot. PA needs to clamp the incitement, and the West needs to make it clear that this is one of the conditions, otherwise, we'll be back to square one in no time.
 
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Bird of Prey

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Can you not see that asking Israelis to compromise their security after their previous concessions were met with violence is counter human nature. And what exactly is that I am asking is out of the realm of illogical? Stop attacking civillians? Stop teaching hate? This is pretty basic stuff. Without it, there is no real chance for peace.

EDIT: All those demands, by the way, were always presented in every signed agreement. The palestinians never acted upon them.

You can't expect people to not hate an occupier of their land. Of course they're going to preach hatred. Essentially, all they have is their voices and their fury. That's not going away until the Israeli military goes away and Palestine enjoys autonomy. And the concessions made by Israel in the past were never a full-blown withdrawal of land that is not her's and you know that, Dm. Israel can't seem to get her big foot out of Palestine, and it's not entirely about security.
 

dmytryp

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You can't expect people to not hate an occupier of their land. Of course they're going to preach hatred. Essentially, all they have is their voices and their fury. That's not going away until the Israeli military goes away and Palestine enjoys autonomy.
You simply have no idea about the levels of hatred we are talking about. We are talking about full blown anti-semitic, genocidal messages. Messages that never ever include the ideas of co-existence.

And the concessions made by Israel in the past were never a full-blown withdrawal of land that is not her's and you know that, Dm. Israel can't seem to get her big foot out of Palestine, and it's not entirely about security.
a. It was much more than they had ever gotten from anyone (that includes the brits, the ottomans and their arab brethren). I also fail to see how getting all your military and all settlers out of Gaza is not "getting israel's big foot" out.
b. The concessions were supposed to be trust building steps between enemies. They were never reciprocated.
c. What is it about BoP? You keep harping on expansionism, but you haven't provided any reason for it.
 

dmytryp

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I wonder if this is going to be reported anywhere (NYT?) The Brigade commander of the unit accused in the Haaretz and NYT pieces launched a personal investigation. Lo and behold, these incidents didn't actually happen (not really surprising, given the fact that the report was hearsay from rumors)
Two central incidents that came up in the testimony, which Danny Zamir, the head of the Rabin pre-military academy presented to Chief of Staff Gaby Ashkenazi, focus on one infantry brigade. The brigade’s commander today will present to Brigadier General Eyal Eisenberg, commander of the Gaza division, the findings of his personal investigation about the matter which he undertook in the last few days, and after approval, he will present his findings to the head of the Southern Command, Major General Yoav Gallant.
Regarding the incident in which it was claimed that a sniper fired at a Palestinian woman and her two daughters, the brigade commander’s investigation cites the sniper: “I saw the woman and her daughters and I shot warning shots. The section commander came up to the roof and shouted at me, ?Why did you shoot at them.’ I explained that I did not shoot at them, but I fired warning shots.”
Officers from the brigade surmise that fighters that stayed in the bottom floor of the Palestinian house thought that he hit them, and from here the rumor that a sniper killed a mother and her two daughters spread.
The other alleged incident, the killing by a sniper of an elderly woman, also seems not to have taken place:
Regarding the second incident, in which it was claimed that soldiers went up to the roof to entertain themselves with firing and killed an elderly Palestinian woman, the brigade commander investigation found that there was no such incident.



 

Bird of Prey

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Well, there are two fundamental problems as I see it regarding Palestinian/Israeli incidents. The first is source credibility. Militant Israel's usual fall back is that it's all a smear campaign. I have yet to figure out the point of a smear campaign by western media, but inevitably, that's the hawkish position. And yes, the Palestinians are perfectling capable of inflating the number of civilian casualties. Nevertheless, there shouldn't be any and there are a lot. A few could be reasoned away.

And so, Dm, what do you expect the commander to say?? Do I believe him? Not really. Again, I think there's something up with the Israeli military given the severe uptick in civilian casualties.

Expansionism, Dm, is a means to an end. If a millitant Israel believes that her only security is a wipe-out of her Palestinian foes, then the easiest way to go about it is to provoke the Palestinians into more confrontation. That requires a constant pressure on the Palestinians, enforced poverty, human rights violations, and Israeli settlements to openly confront any hope middle-of-the-road Palestines have for autonomy. That pushes them into the arms of Hamas. Then Israel blames the "hate teaching" Palestinians for their endless struggle, which is frankly, manipulative. The problem for militant Israel, is that the world is recognizing that there is something rather ugly about the Israel occupation and suspect.

I understand Israel's need to defend herself. But what she has been doing is not "defensive" per se, which has raised a lot of eyebrows in the western world.
 

dmytryp

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What do you know? A really even-handed account in NYT, including the account of the casualties figures and IDF's investigation into the accusations. It doesn't claim IDF's account is true, and neither it should. But the same thing should be said when accusations are presented.