English/Irish relations

Do...

start with the Synod of Whitby. That is where the first religious separation occurred and the anti-Irish attitudes rooted themselves.

And it ain't over yet
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930995.stm

My wife is Irish, from Galway and I'm just back from there.
There is huge history between England and Ireland. As for current attitudes - it depends where you go and who you talk to. What do you need for your story?

Just make sure you don't glamourise the IRA (UVF and UFF too for that matter). It always makes me sick when people do that. People should get it through their heads that they aren't freedom fighters, they are terrorists and murderers. They don't deserve to be called heroes. They are evil sick and cold-blooded killers. They don't care if they kill innocent people; men, women and children. And they have done that a lot over the years. And they are still doing it today.

jvc said:

Just make sure you don't glamourise the IRA (UVF and UFF too for that matter). It always makes me sick when people do that. People should get it through their heads that they aren't freedom fighters, they are terrorists and murderers. They don't deserve to be called heroes. They are evil sick and cold-blooded killers. They don't care if they kill innocent people; men, women and children. And they have done that a lot over the years. And they are still doing it today.

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What JVC said.

A few years ago our local paper printed a huge obituary (from the Boston Globe) about one of the IRA leaders. The portrait painted was of an avuncular grandfather figure, freedom fighter, etc. I was incensed enough to write a letter, which got published, pointing out that he was not a hero, he sanctioned the deaths of many and did not deserve such a glowing tribute.
They all do my head in, they've long lost sight of the cause, now it's just about power and murder, they're criminals, plain and simple.

Where in Ireland does the cook come from and when did she arrive in England?
If she came over in the 70s she could certainly have encountered anti-Irish feeling. If she came from one of the border counties she might know/be related to republican activists.

wolf_heart said:

Well, waylander, the story takes place in an english orphanage, and the cook there is part irish, and once I started doing research, I was wondering if being Irish in England would cause problems. It doesn't affect the story line, but I thought it might change some things about the characters.

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In the 1960's some landlords used to put up signs saying 'No Irish; no blacks; no dogs'. So, yes, it might cause problems.

As recently as 1985 I saw, with my own eyes, a sign in a hotel that stated "No Irish Allowed." I'm not sure if it was from any bad feeling towards the Irish people in general. The IRA were targeting hotels at the time and it may just have been a crude security measure.

dolores haze said:

As recently as 1985 I saw, with my own eyes, a sign in a hotel that stated "No Irish Allowed." I'm not sure if it was from any bad feeling towards the Irish people in general. The IRA were targeting hotels at the time and it may just have been a crude security measure.

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With regard to targetting hotels, I did hear a story when I was in Belfast once about a man up on the Antrim Coast who had acquired a hotel which was a complete white elephant, sucking down money and being practically about to bankrupt him. So he gave the staff the evening off and passed the word down at the pub that if the local bunch of "freedom fighters" wanted to strike a blow for the Cause they'd find the keys under the mat.

When I was an archaeologist, back in the late 1980s, one of the lads was Irish. There was something on the news one night about an IRA attack, and he expected to see the police coming round for him the next day, even though he had been on site all day at the time of the attack, just because he was Irish.

As a Canadian - with an Irish father - I was hassled ad nauseam from getting off the plane at Heathrow until getting back on. In most shops people looked somewhat askance, in the airport I had to expose my bra to prove the beeping was just underwire - in the middle of Heathrow. My passport was questioned. It was an amazing experience.

This was 1998.

flannelberry said:

As a Canadian - with an Irish father - I was hassled ad nauseam from getting off the plane at Heathrow until getting back on. In most shops people looked somewhat askance, in the airport I had to expose my bra to prove the beeping was just underwire - in the middle of Heathrow. My passport was questioned. It was an amazing experience.

This was 1998.

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You have an Irish accent, then? Because I can't imagine someone with a Cadanian/North American accent being hassled. Heck, when I went over to Europe several people told me quite seriously to say I was Canadian (it was fine--no one seemed to mind my being American, and in fact a lot of people simply enjoyed the chance to practice some English).

flannelberry said:

As a Canadian - with an Irish father - I was hassled ad nauseam from getting off the plane at Heathrow until getting back on. In most shops people looked somewhat askance, in the airport I had to expose my bra to prove the beeping was just underwire - in the middle of Heathrow. My passport was questioned. It was an amazing experience.

This was 1998.

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I find that a little hard to understand. The days of being rude to Irish people in the UK ended long before 1998, if they even existed. In my experience, people of Irish 'ancestry' who have been brought up in the US or Canada tend to be fed a skewed version of British treatment of the Irish. I think it comes from too many people taking Leon Uris' book Trinity as gospel rather than fiction.

Sorry to disappoint you but the bad old days of overt discrimination are decades and decades past. Assumptions such as the ones you make really do little to help.

But remember, the Real IRA only formed in 1997 after splintering from the Provisional IRA. The Omagh bombing was 1998, a horrible reminder that the Troubles will (I think) never be over, not while a number of those wanting a united Ireland conclude the only way to achieve it is through violence. There were several attacks in England over the next few of years.

Suse said:

But remember, the Real IRA only formed in 1997 after splintering from the Provisional IRA. The Omagh bombing was 1998, a horrible reminder that the Troubles will (I think) never be over, not while a number of those wanting a united Ireland conclude the only way to achieve it is through violence. There were several attacks in England over the next few of years.

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Aye, I'd forgotten about them. News coverage of such things in the US is pretty patchy, as you can imagine.

It just torks me off when people assume that it's a British thing to mistreat the Irish. It comes out of too much misinformation on this side of the Atlantic. When I was growing up here, they used to have adverts for an organisation called 'NorAid'. It was a charity that collected $$ for children in Northern Ireland who had been affected by the Troubles. It turns out it was nothing more than another way of getting money to arm the IRA, allegedly.

Read all of these posts carefully. You'll have NO problem finding resources on this.

angeliz2k said:

You have an Irish accent, then? Because I can't imagine someone with a Cadanian/North American accent being hassled. Heck, when I went over to Europe several people told me quite seriously to say I was Canadian (it was fine--no one seemed to mind my being American, and in fact a lot of people simply enjoyed the chance to practice some English).

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No. No accent but a name that would be identified as staunchly Irish and Catholic.

I assure you, I was hassled and it was made plain - especially at Heathrow - that my Irishness had everything to do with it.

firedrake said:

I find that a little hard to understand. The days of being rude to Irish people in the UK ended long before 1998, if they even existed. In my experience, people of Irish 'ancestry' who have been brought up in the US or Canada tend to be fed a skewed version of British treatment of the Irish. I think it comes from too many people taking Leon Uris' book Trinity as gospel rather than fiction.

Sorry to disappoint you but the bad old days of overt discrimination are decades and decades past. Assumptions such as the ones you make really do little to help.

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I must confess your post got under my skin. My passport was questioned - although I speak with no Irish accent I was asked if I truly had been born in Canada, when did my family leave Ireland, how much of my family was left and where etc. There was no question that it had everything to do with having a very Irish name. And apparently looking Irish - I got asked in most shops as well. Overtly. Not hinting, my making assumptions "are you Irish dear?" was the most often way it was put. DH thought it quite funny; it wore on me after a while.

flannelberry said:

No. No accent but a name that would be identified as staunchly Irish and Catholic.

I assure you, I was hassled and it was made plain - especially at Heathrow - that my Irishness had everything to do with it.

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Frankly, this kind of outlook is so outdated that it belongs in the bad old days of 'The Troubles'.

I doubt, very much that you were "hassled" because of your 'Irishness'. However, if that's what you truly believe, enjoy. The war is over.

For the record, I also have Irish Catholic relatives. I have plenty of sympathy for the Irish, I've studied the history. Apologies for getting under your skin but I think you're being a little over-sensitive here. Having lived in Britain during the bombing campaigns of the 1980s I get tired of people thinking that people of Irish ancestry are still singled out for being, somehow, associated with the IRA, by British authorities or the average person on the street. Shopkeepers asking if you were Irish was, simply, a matter of making polite conversation. If you wish to believe otherwise, that's your choice.

The world has moved on. Deal with it.

Suse said:

But remember, the Real IRA only formed in 1997 after splintering from the Provisional IRA. The Omagh bombing was 1998, a horrible reminder that the Troubles will (I think) never be over, not while a number of those wanting a united Ireland conclude the only way to achieve it is through violence. There were several attacks in England over the next few of years.

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Thank you for that reminder. When I was there it was like being in Belfast - military in the Tube stations etc. Heathrow was freaky - people were stressed.

firedrake said:

Aye, I'd forgotten about them. News coverage of such things in the US is pretty patchy, as you can imagine.

It just torks me off when people assume that it's a British thing to mistreat the Irish. It comes out of too much misinformation on this side of the Atlantic. When I was growing up here, they used to have adverts for an organisation called 'NorAid'. It was a charity that collected $$ for children in Northern Ireland who had been affected by the Troubles. It turns out it was nothing more than another way of getting money to arm the IRA, allegedly.

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It torks me when people make assumptions about something they weren't present for (if indeed you were referring to my post which it appears you were). I assure you - see previous posts - I'm not assuming I was mistreated because of my father's nationality. I was asked to lift my shirt in the main security area - entirely lift my shirt to the point of baring everything and obscuring my vision - because the female security guard did not believe the beeping under my shirt was underwire while dh, with his British issue BDU jacket walked through security beeping from all of his cutlery, coins etc. and was not asked about the lead line bag in his carry on - it had data tapes (yes, tapes back then) but could have held any number of weapons.

As I said, my passport was questioned, someone had to verify it was authentic, I was asked numerous questions about my Irish family, how long since they came to Canada etc. There is no assumption being made on my part.

I had a friend go to England that year from Canada with her father and brother. A very Scottish family - also put through the same sort of thing in security. Her brother in particular.He obviously fit some sort of profile but very similar questions.

Please, do not assume things like that haven't happened in our memory.

firedrake said:

Frankly, this kind of outlook is so outdated that it belongs in the bad old days of 'The Troubles'.

I doubt, very much that you were "hassled" because of your 'Irishness'. However, if that's what you truly believe, enjoy. The war is over.

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I would be interested in hearing your explanation of why I was hassled. What else would it be if not that? Why would they ask if I was born in Canada, where my parents were born, when did my family come to Canada, how much of my family was still in Ireland, what sort of connections I have in Ireland, when was the last time I was in Ireland, etc. I wasn't asked when the last time I was in England, the US or France, etc. I wasn't asked how much of my family still lives in England or when that half of my family came from England. The only thing I was asked about, repeatedly and in many different ways, was the Irish connections. If you have another explanation, I'd love to hear it.

Possibly your name is the same as someone on the 'watch' list and the system had flagged this up.