Still struggling with 3rd person POV

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Bubastes

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I'm having trouble making my 3rd person POV stories sound natural. For some reason, that little extra bit of distance makes my narration go haywire because I no longer feel that close to the character even if I'm writing in close 3rd. Intellectually, I know that close 3rd isn't that different from 1st, but I'm still having trouble making the mental shift.

Any tips on how to be more comfortable writing in 3rd? Or is it just a matter of more practice? I love the flexibility of 3rd, but if 3rd person POV were a camera, I'm still pushing random buttons to see what they do. The focal length analogy is perfect for the way I think about POV.

Thanks!
 
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Calla Lily

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I'm at work, and can't remember the exact title, but Orson Scott Card wrote a great book called Character and Viewpoint (I think). It's thin and easy to get through and excellent. The library should have it.
 

Bubastes

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I have that book and LOVE it! That's where I learned the camera analogy.
 

nevada

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I disagree with the camera analogy. I don't have my book with me right now. cameras are all fine when you're writing 3rd objective in which the narrator never enters a character's head and the reader never learns any emotion or thought from the character. works great for movie scripts. not so great for novels.

Like you said, it's not that different from 1st person POV. So try writing the narration in the voice of the character. use his language. his words. forget about internal dialogue and use the narrative as an indication of what he's thinking.

My books are all packed up so i can't give you an example, so I'm going to do what i consider to be something horrible. lol i'm going to give you an example of *gasp* my own WIP.

He grabbed a pair of pants off the pile. They smelled okay. He pulled them on, dragged on a somewhat dodgy smelling shirt, clean socks. Clean socks were important. They protected a soldier’s feet from blisters and sores. An army marched on its feet or some horse shit like that.
Except he wasn’t in the army anymore, was he?

He hung up the phone, realized he was smiling. It felt strange, the muscle movement tugging at his beard. Figure skating. What the hell. He lived through Kabul and Kandahar City, he could live through classical music and sparkly costumes.

The two examples above are from one character's POV Srgt Luc La Fontaine (ret) he's 30, spent his whole adult live in the army, he's gruff. I like to think that in the narrative I've captured his voice. Not that much different than 1st.

THe next example is from the other POV character, Marin, 17 yrs old, religious, at odds with his family, looking for a mission from God.

Marin told the man to sit down and he’d bring the coffee and muffin. He turned away to fill a mug and reconsidered his initial impression. Maybe the man wasn’t homeless after all. Without the beard, he looked tired but respectable. He had that same look Marin’s father had. Cautious, on-guard. He wondered if the man was in the army like his dad had been.

Marin laid in the soft grass. A magpie somewhere screamed at a squirrel, who gave as good as he got. Down the street, someone was mowing the lawn and Marin imagined he could smell the green scent of fresh-cut grass. He wondered if tomorrow he’d come home to find the outside of the house painted pink, like last summer.

Sentence structure is different. Marin is much more formal than Luc. He's thoughtful, he's deliberate, his sentences are longer, more complete. He notices things like what people are wearing, what things smell like. Luc, right now, is so shut into his own head that as long as his clothes don't smell he doesn't notice what they look like, what colour they are nothing, so i don't write that. I only write what the character directly sees, thinks, smells, feels, knows. If it doesn't matter to him how a room is decorated, I don't write it.

So don't think of 3rd limited as being a camera. THink of it more like you wearing the character as a suit, looking through his eyes, hearing and recording everything he feels, sees, touches, thinks, in his voice. without internal thoughts, which to me only emphasize that distance.

Sorry for using my WIP as an example. it's a first draft.
 
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Kate Thornton

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I try switching back & forth from first to third, rewriting a chapter to see the differences. Third does distance you a bit, but it can give you more descriptive leeway, too. Third lets the narrator see things the first person character cannot, so you can get more into the action.

First: I can only give you my reaction, I thought, watching the others react. I waited.

Third: He reacted, the other characters reacted, too, but the full impact of the impending doom hadn't reached them yet. He waited, unaware that something else was happening as one of the other characters felt the air leave her lungs.

That said, I still write primarily in first person when working short and third when working long (novel length)
 

nevada

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He waited, unaware that something else was happening as one of the other characters felt the air leave her lungs.

that's not third limited. Limited means limited to the POV character so if he's unaware it can't be mentioned. and you certainly can't say in third limited that another character feels the air leave her lungs. now you're slipping into 3rd omniscient. You can say that the POV character noticed the chest of the other character look like it caved in as she released her breath or something like that.
 

Prosthetic Foreheads

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Third: He reacted, the other characters reacted, too, but the full impact of the impending doom hadn't reached them yet. He waited, unaware that something else was happening as one of the other characters felt the air leave her lungs.
What Nevada said. This is a POV violation. The whole idea is to not write anything the character doesn't know himself/herself.

I try switching back & forth from first to third, rewriting a chapter to see the differences. Third does distance you a bit, but it can give you more descriptive leeway, too. Third lets the narrator see things the first person character cannot, so you can get more into the action.
Again, the amount of information you can include doesn't change. It's the same as first person. The narrator is the character, so he/she still can only see the same things as a first person narrator.
 

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In Kate's defense, I didn't limit my question to 3rd limited. My struggle is with 3rd of any kind. It just feels weird to write that way.

The camera analogy is not literal, by the way. I imagine a camera that can enter a person's thoughts as well (like the examples Orson Scott Card gave).

Thanks for the input, everyone! This helps.
 

nevada

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My fault. For some reason I thought you said 3rd limited. Sorry Kate. My apologies.

I must find my orson scott card book, see what he says. lol i know i have it. obviously didnt make much of an impact on me. ;)
 

Prosthetic Foreheads

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Okay, I understand then. I had thought the discussion was on third/limited. Obviously an omniscient narrator sees/knows all. Is omniscient used much anymore? When I think of omniscient narration, I think of the old stuff.
 

Bubastes

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I'd love to try 3rd omni someday, but I'm afraid it will only give me enough rope to hang myself!
 

Prosthetic Foreheads

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Btw, Kate's suggestion to write the scene in first person is a good one. But for your purposes, not to compare differences. Write it in first person, then go back and switch all those first person pronouns to your third person name (and pronouns where appropriate).
 

Kate Thornton

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When I write in 3rd, I always use 3rd omniscient because otherwise you have such a limited POV (and one without authentic interior voice.)

And this does indeed change the amount of information you can include vs. first or limited 3rd.

Omniscient 3rd equals "old stuff"? What old stuff do you mean, Prosthetic? Lots of modern novels are written in omniscient 3rd - although many genre novels I read are in first.
 

Prosthetic Foreheads

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Sorry, I wasn't disparaging anything. Old stuff meaning classics. Most modern novels I’ve read (and I admit to not being the widest-read), are first or third limited. I’ve read plenty of stuff where the author tells you what more than one character is thinking, but they weren’t writing in omniscient. They simply switched POV from one character to another within the scene (head-hopped). A fine line, but it’s not the same as omniscient.

I always use 3rd omniscient because otherwise you have such a limited POV (and one without authentic interior voice.)
I find the variety of authentic voices to be greater in third limited.
 

nevada

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a lot of literary novels are written in 3rd omniscient. so it's definitely not old stuff, but not used a lot within genre writing.
 

nevada

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When I write in 3rd, I always use 3rd omniscient because otherwise you have such a limited POV (and one without authentic interior voice.)

Kate, can you explain to me what you mean by "without authentic interior voice"? I am puzzled by that because 3rd limited is totally the character's voice. you only see hear feel etc what the character does and so the narration is in the character's voice.
 

Claudia Gray

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If first person feels more natural to you, why not use that?
 

Bubastes

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I'm trying to expand my writer's toolbox. Plus, 1st is too restricting for some of the stories I want to write. I love trying new things!
 
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