Purgatory's Pit of Doom

I missed Tri's news. Tri, we can give you a half strength maggotini.

So I feel like I'm picking over the carcass of my book-that-was-formerly-on-sub. I hoped I would sleep off my urge to rewrite it, but the idea is firmly entrenched in my brain. I even asked a question in the Ask the Agent forum about it, and I'm still not dissuaded by the answer.

It's like I'm sabotaging myself. That book got rejected all over the place for the MC not being relatable, which I took as code for she's not perky and she has a minor disability. Well, she's still not going to be perky, and she's still going to have the same disability. And the concept will be even less commercial than it was originally. And parts of the concept might even be recognizable by agents/editors (won't know for sure until I write it).

Yeah, definitely shooting myself in the foot. *le sigh* But if the urge to work on it doesn't go away by the time I finish my UF revisions, I might go for it anyway. If I can't get pub love on the things that are hooky, I might as well write what I want.

Hey HC,

I figured you knew a few faces, I met you in hell before I fell through it's slimy grates and landed here

I didn't think your post fit with the pit but I wouldn't say it's offensive.

Thanks for the attempt to cheer us up, but I'll second Mario-all our rejections/getting dumped by agents/failed submissions hearing NO NO NO have made us sullen and grouchy.

The thing about here is, it's kind of our 'sanctuary' where we can come and feel depressed as we want without 'worrying' about being cheered up. If we want that, we go to other threads

I for one don't want to be cheered up right now because being cheered up may lead to hoping I'll find an agent again which will make it hurt that much worse when the R's come rolling in when I query again.

*slams back one of Kellion's maggotinis*

PS Congrats Tri!

Ink this...sooo this -> 'If I can't get pub love on the things that are hooky, I might as well write what I want.'

{{Ink}} I'd start cheering and waving pom poms in the air telling you can do it bla de bla bla, but I'd prob. get a ball of hellhound poop thrown at me...and rightfully so.
I say, if you still have the urge to revise after your other WIP, go for it.

Ink, I think you should write what you want the way you want. That means 'T, that means that other great idea you have but don't think is hooky enough. You are already really good, you know that. You need to write what will excite you.

I'm not sure I will get a new agent. I'm not sure I will break through -- the kinds of books I write are being published, but they're not the ones in bookstores and they are being published more rarely period, and more and more are shuffled to small press. So even if I get published, this is always going to be a hobby -- might as well write the stories I like.

I'm there, Kell. The stuff I write is so off the radar that I don't expect to every really hit it big. These days I don't even expect to get another agent. If I can get back to where writing for me is fun, that would be enough.

Full R from the agent who requested on Wed. Can't complain about the speed, and it's finally something concrete to work with for revisions. Technically it's an R&R, but I have no clue how to address her issue. *headdesk*

Anyway, what I actually popped in here to say was you're all right. Must write what we love because it's unlikely anyone else will read it.

An R&R is good - only half a maggotini for you. PM me if you want to discuss her suggestions...

Based on a Dyst3l and G0derich blog that called the Newbery winner "retro" and possibly "hopelessly institutional," I'm getting that my agent might not have really though my books would never sell to anyone (although maybe she did mean that) but that they would never sell for enough money to be worth her time. I think I write retro, institutional books.

Well, I think that is what agents mean, Kell. This book won't sell enough to be worth my effort. Which you can't blame them. You can't really make a living off 15% of $2000 advances. Not like you can make a living off 85% of $2000 advances, but agents don't really see a profit in selling to small presses.

No, I don't blame agents for not wanting to spend a ton of time to earn $300. I just wish there was a way to get through to even smallish presses that only take agented subs, and to break through the slush pile of those who do.

I have to think that some agents would want that type of story. If only for the prestige. But maybe those agents are already well-established and don't have to do it for the money. Which, of course, makes them all the picker about who they pluck from the slush.

'but that they would never sell for enough money to be worth her time' <- Ouch. But you've spoken a harsh truth here, Kellion. Perhaps our books ARE marketable, but not to houses that would offer enough of an advance to make the agent feel like their time was 'worth while'

{{{Ink}}}

As to picking at the carcas of the former sub-book and the "concept will be even less commercial" my question is, why? Why go less commercial. You are only limited by your imagination. Why not go more commercial?

In times like these I feel we fall into the stereotypes of what commercial is, but it's more expansive than that.

Reading S. King's 'on writing' what a great/funny/helpful book!
So this jumped out at me: "...most writers can remember the first book they put down thinking I can do better than this. Hell I AM doing better than this!...what could be better to a struggling writer than knowing their stuff is better than that of someone who's actually gotten paid for their stuff'

and
'A great novel may fill writers with feelings of jealousy: I'll never be able to write that good if I live to be a thousand' but those feelings can goad the writer to work harder'

I've felt both things. And while some writers whose writing I may not like have gotten published I totally realize that doesn't mean decent un-published writing will get picked up. I like the top quote but sometimes reading drivel makes me depressed, like THIS got published and I can't get a shot??

I also LOVE this, gives me a 'reason' to continue on other than that I enjoy writing. "If God gives you something you can do, why in God's name wouldn't you do it"

soulcascade said:

Reading S. King's 'on writing' what a great/funny/helpful book!
So this jumped out at me: "...most writers can remember the first book they put down thinking I can do better than this. Hell I AM doing better than this!...what could be better to a struggling writer than knowing their stuff is better than that of someone who's actually gotten paid for their stuff'

and
'A great novel may fill writers with feelings of jealousy: I'll never be able to write that good if I live to be a thousand' but those feelings can goad the writer to work harder'

I've felt both things. And while some writers whose writing I may not like have gotten published I totally realize that doesn't mean decent un-published writing will get picked up. I like the top quote but sometimes reading drivel makes me depressed, like THIS got published and I can't get a shot??

I also LOVE this, gives me a 'reason' to continue on other than that I enjoy writing. "If God gives you something you can do, why in God's name wouldn't you do it"

Click to expand...

Just picked up his book for the first time in December, not a huge King fan, but ON WRITING is great. I have so many quotes from it.

I agree though, hard to pick up something that's utter dribble and think THIS got published!

Snappy, I like some of King's books, but I wouldn't say I'm a huge fan either

What I love about this book is its lack of pretension. It feels very honest. And even if the advice is time worn (for example to be a decent writer you need to read a lot, write a lot) I feel like it's only in there because he believes it to be true. (And I agree with that quote too). I also think it's hilarious when he gives advice and then flat out admits it's a case of 'do as I say not as I do'

Did you read Donald Maas "Writing the breakout novel"? I loved that one, too. I don't think I'll ever write a break out novel, but he gave some sound advice and man did it help one of my WIP's!

I say write what you love.

I wrote (not on purpose, I swear) a very commercial ms. Got an agent. Got a TV/ Film option by a very prominent company / producer. Got a write-up in Var!3ty.

And the winner is...not me. Never got a sale. Never even got a second read. We sent all this info to the reading editors and No. One. Cared.

So, just because you write commercial, doesn't mean d*ck.

Yeah, I'm bitter. *slinks off to inhale multiple maggotinis*

I agree that we really don't know what the secret formula is for acceptance from a big NYC Eds. Hell, I've written for myself, then in desperation written everything high-concept and as commercial as I could make it. Nada. It ain't flyin.' Seems the more I go out of my way to make it more unique and original, the harder it bombs and the faster it comes back. I mean, who the hell ever heard of a female werewolf cloned from an Ice Age man-eating dire wolf? It doesn't matter how far out there you are, it seems, even if the science is damn near bullet proof.

How 'bout a dream catcher that's so filled up with nightmares that when a host of troubled, nightmare-prone,teenagers have a sleepover under it, the damn thing explodes and sucks them into an alternate universe.

Youz guys have got some real original stories--I've read your blogs and websites. I've seen concepts that are so original, you'd swear they'd never been done in any form before.

Do you have to write "safe" for major publication. Was Harry Potter and Twilight safe? Safe because it appealed to the masses? I'm hitting zeros with agented stuff so far. No hope in sight, yet it's still early.

Except for small press.

They're all over me like larvae--swarming. I've taken some contracts, but canned many, and I do mean many. 'Course I only resort to small press when the manuscript looks like it's going down in flames on the agent end. Then I kick myself in the ass for taking the low road, which is the only road left. I'll never self-publish. I don't have the energy.

I'm one of the older writers who've been in this for multiple decades. I wish I was 35 again, and that I knew I had time to break in. Those of us in our 50s and 60s are facing a door that's slowly closing on us. Hell, it takes about five years of serious publication to build a fan base alone. I'm at the point where I'm considering selling everything I have to leave as a legacy, ya know, before it's too late. In a way, I'm cashing out my chips.

Then again, one big blockbuster can change all that. But how realistic is that?

If you've got a trunked novel that you truly believe in, and know that these eds and agents are missing the boat, hunt down advance-paying, distribution indies and give a whirl. Five hundred to a couple grand ain't such a bad rap, and you'll land in the bookstores--not as many--but you'll be there.

Tri

Tri, I'll definitely approach small presses if I can't get an agent's interest with my current WIP. And then maybe I'll switch something up -- maybe a new genre.

Can I say something that I hope doesn't sound like sour grapes? I really don't mean to sound like a miserable cricket but...you know what bothers me? Like, really bothers me? When I tell people my story and they tell me to write another ms, get an agent, and hopefully that ms will sell so I can then sell my first.

While yes, there may be no choice in the matter, it just boggles me every time I hear this. Some people can write a ms in weeks or even months. The ms that didn't sell took me over a year to write with many, many revisions. I labored over each sentence.

I feel like if someone just ran a marathon, you wouldn't say, "Buck up. Run another." I put years into my ms between the process of writing, revising, and getting an agent. To just say, "Write another." It's so insensitive.

/rant

((Cricket))

Cricket...I'm so with you. People who are telling you that just don't get it. They're blessed, or cursed, with the ability to write quickly and effortlessly. I'm not. The novel I'm querying now took about 3/4s of a year to write, but it felt like a decade. So much blood and sweat and eye juice. To be told to try something new is like coming out of labor half-dead and partially insane with pain and having the doctor say, "Well, it's not going to win any beauty pageants. Why don't you try again?" (I assume, anyway. I'm kidless. But this book seemed symbolically childbirthy.)

I get that well-intentioned but cluelessly hurtful "advice" from my BF sometimes. He's just trying to encourage me, I know, but that kind of encouragement makes me want to find a stout beam and some rope. After he made a few comments to that effect, I explained how it was inadvertently hurtful, and he completely understood. Some people just don't get it, and probably never will--and sometimes that includes other writers.

Have a big, big hug from me. *hug*

Also, hello, Pit! I've been meaning to join you Purglets for a while now. I'm Leah (Hi, Leah!), I'm querying, and I have 2 partials out that are making me neurotic with anxiety/hope/excitement/terror. Oh em gee.

*Waves to Leahzero* Welcome to the Pit, where hope is dead, but nightmares and bad news are alive and well.

I think what's tough is that there are folks out there who did get published with their 2nd, 3rd, 4th attempt. So it feels easy to pontificate. But for some of us, the ms that didn't sell felt like "the one."

Just fyi, there's no hope in the Pit. As a matter of fact, hope, good news, etc. aren't allowed.

*hands Leahzero a maggotini with moldy olives*

*waves to Word*

And welcome, Leah. That is a great analogy.

When you don't sell a novel and it goes in the trunk, it becomes nothing. If you make visual art no one wants to buy, you can still hang it on the wall and people might tell you it's pretty, but an unpublished novel is no more substantial than a dream after you wake up.

I hate hearing agents or editors say, show me your next work. Because that means they think no one in the world will buy this one, and it means you have a year ahead of you and the next book may not be better. It may even be worse.

Welcome, Leah. And yes, good analogy.

(((Cricket))) I write fast (it helps having no kids and, for a while, a job in which I was underemployed). But the "next one" advice grates no matter what.

Kellion, that's it exactly. Trunked novels cease to exist.

All the agents who've said they want to see my next novel have phrased it as: "I'm sure someone else is going to sign you for this, but on the off chance you still need an agent for your next one...." I'm sure they're just being nice. What really stings though is that there's a good chance your next one won't appeal to them anyway. The very first hurdle you have to cross at the query level is concept. An agent who loved one concept might very well hate another. So it's all kind of meaningless.

In the long run, everything in a rejection is meaningless except the "no" part. There is no "close." Even if you gain skills and craft, you start with a blank page every time.