Purgatory's Pit of Doom

I just noticed something interesting, and I'm not sure it means what I think it means.

Purgatory has about 17,400 replies and about 337,000 views
the Pit has about 14,724 replies and about 397,000 views.

Does this mean lots and lots of people are coming down here to read our rants and discussions? I don't usually pay attention to numbers and such.

I've gotten a few interesting reps and emails from people reading the agent thing and commenting. Very interesting stuff.

I honestly felt I was buried down here where only a few brave souls ventured, so I could talk much more bluntly than usual.

Teriann said:

Does this mean lots and lots of people are coming down here to read our rants and discussions? I don't usually pay attention to numbers and such.

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I lurk the thread like a ninja! I read and occasionally rep.

Teri, the Pit has been called out before, at least twice by agents, once by an editor, once by writer. So people do lurk. But remember, those views are all-time for the Pit. Purgatory is on volume 6, and those views are for volume 6 alone.

Morning Pitizens.

Teri, yes I believe the Pit has many lurkers, but I don't think you should worry about anything you've written. It's an opinion that's developed from your experiences and your research. Even though I may not always agree with it, I certainly respect it. And I would hope professionals in the industry would as well.

Parametric said:

I lurk the thread like a ninja! I read and occasionally rep.

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Para, Sweetie, I truly believe you will become a big shot editor. Good editors rise fast, usually to positions of authority within 10 years.

I imagine you one day taking the word up to the top of Mount Olympus, helping your fellow gods and goddesses understand what life is like for struggling mortals.

When your colleage says, "I have too many submissions! I will limit my subs to agented material only!" You will gently say, "You know, there are writers who will interpret that as 'I will only work with you if you're willing to bend over and. . ." Wait! I'm a middle grade author. Stop there.

Snappy said:

Morning Pitizens.

Teri, yes I believe the Pit has many lurkers, but I don't think you should worry about anything you've written. It's an opinion that's developed from your experiences and your research. Even though I may not always agree with it, I certainly respect it. And I would hope professionals in the industry would as well.

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Thanks, Snappy. As you can see, not only wasn't I worried but my very next post came as close to obscenity as a children's book author and officer of the court dares.

I'm glad you don't always agree with me. I don't always agree with me either, in the sense that my opinions are always changing as I learn.

Teriann said:

Thanks, Snappy. As you can see, not only wasn't I worried but my very next post came as close to obscenity as a children's book author and officer of the court dares.

I'm glad you don't always agree with me. I don't always agree with me either, in the sense that my opinions are always changing as I learn.

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Good. I enjoy the conversations in the Pit. Don't want to see them get curtailed.

And Para, come on down. We don't bite. Well, the hellhounds do, but as long as you don't provoke them they tend to drool in the corner.

Don't worry, Teri, THEY are coming after you.

SteveCordero said:

Don't worry, Teri, THEY are coming after you.

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As long as the showdown can be in writing, I'm ready.

I'm used to defending difficult positions in writing.

Speaking of which, I filed my second to last brief before taking a long vacation and I fully expect to get skewered. "Creative" is a compliment in all forms of writing except appellate briefing, and a colleague just read my brief and said, "I thought you did a great job with your creative credibility arguments."

Sometimes in my line of work there is no option but to get creative. "The statute says stealing cars is illegal, but my client only stole one car."

Teriann said:

As long as the showdown can be in writing, I'm ready.

I'm used to defending difficult positions in writing.

Speaking of which, I filed my second to last brief before taking a long vacation and I fully expect to get skewered. "Creative" is a compliment in all forms of writing except appellate briefing, and a colleague just read my brief and said, "I thought you did a great job with your creative credibility arguments."

Sometimes in my line of work there is no option but to get creative. "The statute says stealing cars is illegal, but my client only stole one car."

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LOL and have a great vacation.

I remember early on in my career I was tought:

"If the facts aren't on your side, argue the law. If the law isn't on your side, argue the facts. If neither the law nor the facts are on your side, argue public policy. If even public policy is against you, then just make it up."

SteveCordero said:

LOL and have a great vacation.

I remember early on in my career I was tought:

"If the facts aren't on your side, argue the law. If the law isn't on your side, argue the facts. If neither the law nor the facts are on your side, argue public policy. If even public policy is against you, then just make it up."

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I learned it as pounding the table.

If the law is on your side, pound the law.
If the law is against you, pound the facts.
If the law and facts are against you, pound the table.

Of course, the law and facts are usually against me. As an appellate lawyer, I don't even have a table handy. It's hard.

Teriann said:

[/B]

I learned it as pounding the table.

If the law is on your side, pound the law.
If the law is against you, pound the facts.
If the law and facts are against you, pound the table.

Of course, the law and facts are usually against me. As an appellate lawyer, I don't even have a table handy. It's hard.

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I like your sayings.

Criminal appellate work is tough. There are so many appeals that appellate courts usually don't allow oral argument (which happens in your case). Generally, the same happens here. We get to orally argue our civil cases, so we've had to pound the table a couple of times.

I lack your moral fortitude so I've stayed with my civil practice.

SteveCordero said:

I like your sayings.

Criminal appellate work is tough. There are so many appeals that appellate courts usually don't allow oral argument (which happens in your case). Generally, the same happens here. We get to orally argue our civil cases, so we've had to pound the table a couple of times.

I lack your moral fortitude so I've stayed with my civil practice.

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Technically (in CA) we are always allowed to request oral arguments. As a practical matter, there are a few appellate courts which have subtle means of discouraging us.

I'm not sure about the moral fortitude part.

I do think there are lots of similarities between writing criminal and dependency appeals and trying to sell my writing.

fourlittlebees said:

Still here, under couch. Got a zombie R on a full that will have me digging my way under the couch all the way to China. Add that on to RL woes and no bites on job applications and I'm about ready to just write this whole year off.

I'm at that point where I question why I bother writing.

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{{{{bbbb}}}} Good to see you, although sorry it's in the Pit. I saw a big lump under the couch and figured it was hellhound poo, not an actual person.

You write because it's who you are, who we all are. We're masochists like that.

My meeting ended early, right near my house. No, I'm not going back to work...it would be an hour drive anyway, so no point. I feel a little guilty and a lot overjoyed I'm done for the week.

Hello, Pitizens.

Heyo, Mario.

I am drunk and revising. Wheeee!
(Because these revisions require booze.)

Cricket18 said:

{{{{bbbb}}}} Good to see you, although sorry it's in the Pit. I saw a big lump under the couch and figured it was hellhound poo, not an actual person.

You write because it's who you are, who we all are. We're masochists like that.

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I often wonder why I want it all so badly. (writing isn't enough, right? We also want some measure of success)

There is something kind of crazy about it.

Hubby says, "You just want to be rich and famous," but that doesn't explain it because if I won the lottery I'd still be trying to earn a buck through my writing, and I get actual pleasure from checking my kindle figures under my pen name and seeing that someone bought one of my books, and there's no fame at all since it isn't my name.

I don't feel that drive in my other life as a lawyer. If I wanted fame and fortune as a lawyer, trust me I'd be practicing in a different area.


Don't get too drunk to run from tornadoes, Red. (Auto spell check almost made that 'tomatoes')

I want to inflict my stories on others. You know, as in comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable.

RedScylla said:

I want to inflict my stories on others. You know, as in comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable.

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For people too comfortable?

Put a false beginning, say the first 20 percent all nice and sweet and warm and fuzzy. A reader downloads your sample and thinks, "What a sweet story! It's like Disneyland. I'll buy it," and then hits the purchase button.

As the reader progresses in the story, it becomes darker and darker, but the writing is so compelling the reader is drawn in until WHAM afflicted.

The reader then has a true epiphany, and doesn't alert the unwary.

Nobody should be too comfortable.

RedScylla said:

I want to inflict my stories on others. You know, as in comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable.

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I'm declaring dibs on an interview when you sell Thirteen, and would request you work this into your responses. It is awesome and IMHO works as a tagline for your work.

Don't know where I heard it from (Ellison maybe), but he said he wrote for fame, friends and eight-by-tens. Heh, hey, I adopted it. It throws it right out there.

Teriann said:

For people too comfortable?

Put a false beginning, say the first 20 percent all nice and sweet and warm and fuzzy. A reader downloads your sample and thinks, "What a sweet story! It's like Disneyland. I'll buy it," and then hits the purchase button.

As the reader progresses in the story, it becomes darker and darker, but the writing is so compelling the reader is drawn in until WHAM afflicted.

The reader then has a true epiphany, and doesn't alert the unwary.

Nobody should be too comfortable.

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Precisely, Teri. And I believe that the book Haupe is referencing does this very thing. It's not Disney, but it does in certain early passages give you a false sense of hope, before it wrestles you to the ground and kicks you in the teeth. (And Haupe, I'm all yours when that day comes.)

Haupe said:

I'm declaring dibs on an interview when you sell Thirteen, and would request you work this into your responses. It is awesome and IMHO works as a tagline for your work.

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I'd like to get so rich and famous that I then strive for the simple life I have now.

Isn't that what everyone does once they get there? Simplify and go back to basics due to discovering the utter vapidness of it all?

Remember that agent tweet Kellion shared that had us all in dithers?

DWS did a blog post on it today.

I tried to insert the url but it isn't working maybe because I'm on an ipad

I did it for you, Teri!

HERE