Purgatory's Pit of Doom

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Teriann

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All right, in 1990 a friend sent me a hardcover picture book called "Max Makes a Million" about a dog who wants to be a poet and live in Paris.

My favorite page (clearly intended to be read in a jewish/ yiddish / NYC accent)

I'm back in my chair writing up a storm when what should ring but the phone. Ha! It's Leon Kampinsky my agent. Do you know what an agent does? He smokes a cigar, takes your writing, tries to sell it, never does, and get 15%. That's what an agent does.

Since 1990 this picture book has had a special place on my shelf.
 

Snappy

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I'm actually not as angered by it as I thought I would be. I'm not sure why. Maybe, I'm used to seeing these types of posts too often now. Or maybe I should put Jaded over my avatar too.

On the flip side, I can see how an agent would think that way. However, it begs the question, what type of writers is this agent taking on that he/she feels she needs to monitor how they behave on the internet?

I often state my mind freely on AW, but I like to think I still maintain a professional image, even in the Pit.

While I know the role of the agent is influx, and Teri I respect all of your opinions on the subject, I am very thankful to have agents (jr. and sr. agent) that I feel are doing the best job they can for me and my work. We have a professional, respectful, and - dare I say it - cordial relationship. They are professionals, not babysitters.
 

Teriann

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I'm actually not as angered by it as I thought I would be. I'm not sure why. Maybe, I'm used to seeing these types of posts too often now. Or maybe I should put Jaded over my avatar too.

On the flip side, I can see how an agent would think that way. However, it begs the question, what type of writers is this agent taking on that he/she feels she needs to monitor how they behave on the internet?

I often state my mind freely on AW, but I like to think I still maintain a professional image, even in the Pit.

While I know the role of the agent is influx, and Teri I respect all of your opinions on the subject, I am very thankful to have agents (jr. and sr. agent) that I feel are doing the best job they can for me and my work. We have a professional, respectful, and - dare I say it - cordial relationship. They are professionals, not babysitters.

It seems to me the role is evolving into a sort of partnership between writer and agent, or a relationship controlled by the agent.

My last agent saw himself as in complete control. He called the shots, he made the decisions, which goes even further than a "partnership." I was an asset in his business, but it was his business. (ETA: He was always cordial, polite, responsive, etc, even when I let loose and fired him.)

There are three possible models: (1) the agent works for the writer, and the writer is in control, (2) the agent and writer have an equal partnership in which they essentially collaborate, and (3) the agent runs a business of which the writer is a part, and the agent is in control.

(1) is the only one that fits the usual definition of 'agent' and has perhaps some relationship to agency law, even though literary agents are not bound by agency law. Also, (1) is the only model in which I will participate.

When you go to law school, you learn to break everything into elements, like this (1) and (2). :)
 
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Amarie

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I guess part of the problem is that there are too many writers who have the "artiste" mentality, who claim to be unable to learn to read a royalty statement or even want to learn about and keep up with the business side of publishing. Ah, to be a delicate and special flower!
 

kellion92

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Amarie, rep me please!

The hard part of the day done. Now I have the boring part, which is hard in another way.
 

Teriann

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I guess part of the problem is that there are too many writers who have the "artiste" mentality, who claim to be unable to learn to read a royalty statement or even want to learn about and keep up with the business side of publishing. Ah, to be a delicate and special flower!

I think it's also easy for people to give up control out of fear. (Talking about writers in what I call model #3 and not #2).

I didn't start off willing to enter a relationship under model #3. I ended up there the way people end up in abusive relationships. I entered because I thought I needed to be in a relationship and his seemed to be the best offer, then as my partner became more controlling "you may not approach editors on your own, everything has to go through me," or "this is how we need to do it," I accepted his authority until I exploded and rebelled. (Again, he always spoke cordially and respectfully. It was only when I figured out that I had no control at all and he was in complete control it felt wrong to me.)

I didn't want to be a delicate flower, I wanted to be writer and saw no alternative to letting someone else be entirely in charge. I think that happens just as often as the artiste mentality.
 

Teriann

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Amarie, rep me please.

Darnit, I missed one of Teri's deleted posts again!

I basically reposted it, but using finer language.

Aren't my (1) (2) and (3) categories reasonable?

One thing a criminal appellate attorney learns to do is appear reasonable even when it is difficult: "Yes, your honor, my client called 911 and said he was going to kill the bastard. But the murder was not premeditated. He murdered a woman, and he always calls women bitches."
 

Snappy

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I suppose the model that fits me is #2. I appreciate an agent who will work in a harmonious (notice the importance of that word) collaboration. I don't need to be in control of everything. If that was the case, why would I need (or want) an agent in the first place? I could do it all myself, which I think is the heart of self-publishing. Teri, stop me if I'm wrong, but that's why #1 is what you'd prefer or better for you is not to have the agent.

#3 is out of the question. If I'm left with no control, or no partner, what am I?
 

kellion92

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Read the link and ... yeah. Do you usually pay a PR consultant a percentage of your salary for the life of a product? It's a way of trying to be indispensable by doing things no one asked for. I don't want to be told how to live my life or conduct myself.

ETA: I think the happiest clients do 2. That doesn't mean 2 makes them happy -- it's just the dynamic when the dynamic works. A client who has an agent doing 3 won't be happy, and an client who has an agent doing 1 doesn't have her happiness reliant on her agent.
 

SteveCordero

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Read the link and ... yeah. Do you usually pay a PR consultant a percentage of your salary for the life of a product? It's a way of trying to be indispensable by doing things no one asked for. I don't want to be told how to live my life or conduct myself.

LOL, Kell, that's brilliant. It's like those late night infomercials trying to sell you stuff you don't need but trying to be passed off as something that you absolutely must have.
 

Amarie

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I don't mind (2) at all, which is what I have with my current agent. I left the former because (3) was unacceptable.

eta: good analogy, Kell
 

Teriann

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I suppose the model that fits me is #2. I appreciate an agent who will work in a harmonious (notice the importance of that word) collaboration. I don't need to be in control of everything. If that was the case, why would I need (or want) an agent in the first place? I could do it all myself, which I think is the heart of self-publishing. Teri, stop me if I'm wrong, but that's why #1 is what you'd prefer or better for you is not to have the agent.

#3 is out of the question. If I'm left with no control, or no partner, what am I?

Question:

If the agent says, "I will not submit this book unless you make certain changes" who is in charge?

I didnt' actually answer your question, Snappy because I have to think about it -- you know, that precision thing. Instead I asked a controversial queston because they're fun.

And because today is the 3 month anniversary of a few submissions and I need to think about something other than my empty inbox and I don't want to think about the huge appellate record on my desk (the last before my long vacation)
 
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Catwoman

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Can you rep me too, Amarie?

The problem with having the artiste mentality is that you tend to get taken advantage of...like actors who don't want to be bothered with the "details" and then come to find half their money has been embezzled by their accountant or manager.
 

Teriann

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Can you rep me too, Amarie?

The problem with having the artiste mentality is that you tend to get taken advantage of...like actors who don't want to be bothered with the "details" and then come to find half their money has been embezzled by their accountant or manager.

But a literary agent would never do that so nobody needs to worry.

Why? They are special people because they love books, which are inherently good, instead of theater, which is filled with shady types. . . so writers have nothing at all to worry about.

BWAHAHAHAHA
 

SteveCordero

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Yay!, I get to disagree with Teri on something (somewhat), but it's been awhile and I missed it. :D

Teri, your (1), (2) and (3) are reasonable BUT, they are all dependant on the power balance.

Depending on the writer's career arc, she may fall under all 3 categories along the way. The newbie is in (3) because of supply & demand. There are way more writers out there trying to strike gold and agents controlling the access point to the pubs who will pay the most money.

The newbie has some success and will jump into category (2), but if she becomes a hit, she will jump into category (3). For instance, Svz@nn3 C011ins of HG fame was a newbie when she came out with her Gr3g0r series. She was in (3) when she started and when she had some success with that, she went into category (2). Now that HG has blown up, where do you think Ms. C011ins is at? In (1), of course. She has the power.

In writing, I'm a businessman in the entertainment business. I'm trying to sell entertainment. I'm not trying to be a starving artist here. I want to sell my books at market value. If my books become a hit, great, if not, so be it. The market (i.e., the buying consumer) will decide.
 

Snappy

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Question:

If the agent says, "I will not submit this book unless you make certain changes" who is in charge?

I didnt' actually answer your question, Snappy because I have to think about it -- you know, that precision thing. Instead I asked a controversial queston because they're fun.

And because today is the 3 month anniversary of a few submissions and I need to think about something other than the huge appellate record on my desk (the last before my long vacation)

Good question. In that case, the agent is in charge. But, I've never had this in the #2 scenario. It's always been "what do you think about xyz?" or "I saw xyz this way." I've never had the experience - thankfully - of an agent saying, I won't submit unless you change this. If I did, it would bring my hackles up.
 

Amarie

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It's good we are discussing this, because like the article said, roles are changing. Writers need to be aware. I read a post by someone reporting on the Digital Book World conference held recently and he noted that on the main panel discussing changes in the industry, no authors were asked to participate. That's a little odd to me.
 

Teriann

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Yay!, I get to disagree with Teri on something (somewhat), but it's been awhile and I missed it. :D

Teri, your (1), (2) and (3) are reasonable BUT, they are all dependant on the power balance.

Depending on the writer's career arc, she may fall under all 3 categories along the way. The newbie is in (3) because of supply & demand. There are way more writers out there trying to strike gold and agents controlling the access point to the pubs who will pay the most money.

The newbie has some success and will jump into category (2), but if she becomes a hit, she will jump into category (3). For instance, Svz@nn3 C011ins of HG fame was a newbie when she came out with her Gr3g0r series. She was in (3) when she started and when she had some success with that, she went into category (2). Now that HG has blown up, where do you think Ms. C011ins is at? In (1), of course. She has the power.

In writing, I'm a businessman in the entertainment business. I'm trying to sell entertainment. I'm not trying to be a starving artist here. I want to sell my books at market value. If my books become a hit, great, if not, so be it. The market (i.e., the buying consumer) will decide.

You assume that all newbies must first grovel to agents and put themselves in the power of agents before they can have any sort of success.

I think agents would like for writers to believe that, but I don't think it's true.
 

ink wench

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Considering I have thus far always conducted myself more professionally than many agents I've seen online, I think I'll pause before I take advice on that topic from an agent.

Meow.
Especially when you consider the agency that agent works for. Oh, irony, I love you so. :roll:

I have deep thoughts on what Teri posted, but no time to type them up. Figures. I'll just say I prefer a partnership because the whole reason I want an agent is so that I can leave the boring crap to someone else and get on with the fun stuff (writing).
 

SteveCordero

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You assume that all newbies must first grovel to agents and put themselves in the power of agents before they can have any sort of success.

I think agents would like for writers to believe that, but I don't think it's true.

Exceptions don't prove the rule, Teri. What successes are you going to point out in modern times? Yes, "modern" times.

What happened in the 1980s or 1990s has no relevance now with the altered publishing paradigm.

Also, it's a matter of access. Agents control the velvet rope. Once you get in, you can leave them behind.
 

kellion92

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If I could have a 2-type relationship that worked, that would be awesome -- someone to bounce things off of -- a teammate.

I don't know if agents are exactly in charge -- the writer produces and owns the books, and the writer can walk away -- but they do continue as a gatekeeper. Even happy clients in 2 relationships have the agent nix ideas and shelve, delay, or decline to represent finished manuscripts. It's a rare writer who doesn't have an agent turn down something. That's part of the process.
 

Teriann

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I suppose the model that fits me is #2. I appreciate an agent who will work in a harmonious (notice the importance of that word) collaboration. I don't need to be in control of everything. If that was the case, why would I need (or want) an agent in the first place? I could do it all myself, which I think is the heart of self-publishing. Teri, stop me if I'm wrong, but that's why #1 is what you'd prefer or better for you is not to have the agent.

#3 is out of the question. If I'm left with no control, or no partner, what am I?

I anticipate being involved in #1 again because if I'm offered another publishing contract, I intend to hire someone to read it for me, and if negotiations get tricky, I intend to hire someone to negotiate for me.

Also if decisions get difficult, I intend to hire someone to advise me. There is one literary attorney who is also an agent. She is available for hire, by the hour. Even if I pay per hour what you pay a lawyer, you can get a lot of advice and help in 60 minutes if the conversation is focused.

Self-publishing is different. I believe from my self-publishing ventures that publishers can still do things for writers that writers can't do for themselves.

I'm not convinced that I need #2 the way I need a publisher.

One problem I have with #2 is that the line between #2 and #3 is a very fine line, easily crossed, and moreover, I think many relationships which the writer believes is #2 is actually #3.

Now I need someone to argue with me so I can further clarify my thoughts.
 
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