Purgatory's Pit of Doom

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lkp

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Unhappy R & R from Big Name Agent at Big Name Agency. :(

The bar is open on this lovely Friday.

This is truly a Pittish dilemma. I guess I would think very hard about it, try to make myself be as open as possible to thinking about ways to do it, but really listen to my gut and turn it down if it felt wrong.
 

Cricket18

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{{{Turnip}}} I've bored you enough with my thoughts, so I won't go any further here. My only advice now: think & drink. ;)

I can't believe I made it to the end of this week. Seriously, I've been dreading it for ages and am so glad it's over.

It won't happen because I've got commitments, but I SO wish I could stay in my jammies and write this whole weekend.

Random aside: I was watching an old X-Files tonight--so good! I wrote a screenplay starring (I hoped) Mitch Pileggi, which was a romantic comedy. I also wrote another called Looking For David Duchovny. Made me nostalgic tonight, watching them both. Wish I could've gotten those filmed.
 

Filigree

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Sharing your pain, Red.

I'm waiting on word on four fulls, and I suspect that next week's news won't be good. My Dream Publisher (not really, but close as I'll find given my genre) has already rejected one book of mine for too-complex worldbuilding. So they're probably going to bog down at my next project, even though I thought I'd simplified the setting and plot on this one.

Then again, am I second-guessing myself needlessly because an editor with a primarily-erotic romance publisher couldn't 'get' a book written for the mainstream market served by Tor, Daw, Del Rey, Pyr, etc?

I read the article about 'The Dressmaker' and its author. A familiar story. In sf&f, Megan Lindholm (already a pseud) had to change her pen name to Robin Hobb to get traction. Self publishing may save folks like Harry Connolly, recently cut loose from Del Rey after falling sales on his third 'Twenty Palaces' novel. But it's come too late for other writers like Michael Scott Rohan and Barry Hughart, who will never have the chance to tell more stories in their great universes.
 

Wordwrestler

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:)It may not work, but one possibility is to pull out all the stops, do whatever the agent wants without compromise, and then when you land an editor, see if you can convince the editor to put it back the way it was.*

You never know . . . The book A. is publishing is very very different from the book which was submitted.

*And if the editor refuses, later after you collect a few awards, you can regale your audiences with the way a writer must sacrifice integrity to get published and everyone will agree that the book would have been much stronger the way you initially wrote it.

Hey, Pit, I just had to come out of lurkdom to comment on this, because I actually thought the same thing Teriann thought of here, and I tried it.

My experience is just my experience, and nothing more, but here's what happened to me:

I got an offer from an agent, on the condition that I make some major changes to my book, then titled Venture. I thought that at least with this agent pitching my book, it would get read, and that I could try to change the book back and bring it closer to my vision after acquisition.

It's now my biggest regret. Some of the editor rejections clearly showed that my original vision would have fared better.

I ended up having my agent withdraw the remaining subs so I could revise. Then, after much contradictory advice and many frustrating rounds of revision, I decided to stop listening to what other people wanted, and I rewrote the story with my original vision in mind.

My agent loved it.

But then we parted ways for a an unrelated reason.

So . . .

If your book doesn't sell, I think you'll always wonder if it would have sold in the form you envisioned. If it does sell, and you aren't able to revise it back, you'll always wonder, too.
 
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lkp

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Wordwrestler, you make excellent points.

Also, I am not sure I'm a good enough writer to revise to order if I didn't believe in the revisions. I think the book would feel hollow.
 

Teriann

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Thanks word wrestler. The only reason I thought it might work is that when agents suggested revisions on TS, I did them, but then when the book sold, the editor had an entirely different idea.

I think it's a given, at least for me, that agents are not editors and they are often wrong and even big name agents sell a fraction of what they submit. But if who want to work with an agent, there often isn't much choice but to rewrite.

Teri has a good point here.

You could also just add a year like you said, send it back explaining why and maybe the agent will go for it.

Or you could do like I did-when I revised the first time for my former agent, I did what she wanted, but sent the revised manuscript back when a page-long letter of why I didn't think certain things she wanted worked. After she read it, she agreed and backed off on some of it. I did a second rewrite.

It is a hard choice, but because we are in the pit I can also say this- a big-time agent will at least get you read. No guarantee otherwise even if eds say they will read. If the agent goes for the revision, she might even be willing to put in the pitch letter that you have a version with a younger MC.

I'll stop talking now. I know too much advice can be maddening.

I also just want to disagree with this. Another thing I've learned is that big name agents area usually big names with writers, and maybe other agents. I believe I know the moment Ms. Snark created this idea in people's minds. Editors live in another universe and they don't track these things the way we do.

At the time S@r@ Cr0we with K@rvey Klinger was repping me, she was listed as the agent who sold the most number of children's books on PW. She subbed my book to 5 editors. One never responded. After we parted ways, I contacted the editor, who had never heard of her or H@rvey Klinger.

Each agent I've worked with in the past 7 years gotten no responses from editors.

I get no responses from queries, but once an editor agrees to read my manuscript, so far I've always gotten a response. When they take a while, I get an apology.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but so far my experience is that once I get past the query range, they all respond and do appear to have read. Obviously, I haven't sold anything, but with an agents, it took many years to sell my second book.

Any agent will get you read with the editors that agent knows and works with, which is a limited number. I saw this first hand with the agents at Russ3ll and V0lkening who didn't even share contacts successfully. The luck has to be that one of the editors that agent knows well and works with wants your book.

Eta: Of course repping yourself is no panacea either.
 
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kellion92

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I think your experience with SC is related to her approach as an agent, which I kind of like. I believe she's a volume agent -- subs many manuscripts widely. If she likes a book, she tries to find editors who fit and sends them pitches. She sells a lot but I bet she doesn't sell a ton of books she subs.

Many agents are relationship agents -- they have a few close relationships with editors. They look for work those editors want, and funnel it to them. In a way, they are outsourced slush readers. When agents say, "I don't have the connections to sell this," those are usually relationship agents. A lot of these agents are the very biggest ones too.

For agents in the middle, the "connections" excuse doesn't make sense to me. I have zero connections, but I've been able to find editors who might be interested in my books, and a few have requested. I haven't sold either, but I wish more agents did this. The best way to make connections with editors is by selling them books, not by inviting them to lunch.
 

Haupe

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Was thinking about this last night. I'm still at the point where I think there are agents who allow themselves to argue for books they believe in past the point of business sense. (Not for every book, obviously, because they wouldn't last, but for the special ones.) If an author is lucky to get one of those, where the visions are aligned - then I still think there's the potential for an agent to feel undermined if the author doesn't articulate their agenda beforehand. (Not having been through this, though, that might be my misunderstanding of process plus my extreme squareness.) You might get the deal but lose the agent, or at least that agent's willingness to go above and beyond.

If there's room with this book to find revision middle ground with a business-savvy agent, what about laying out the agenda beforehand? "You get me the deal, you should know I'll be arguing for a younger protagonist in editorial discussions."

In the right relationship, that might even earn you respect and further alignment.

I guess it comes down to whether you see a given author-agent relationship as disposable or a potential strength.

(See? Like I said: extreme square.)
 

Amarie

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Haupe, I'm not sure an agent would see something like that as a dealbreaker. When they sell a book, they know the editor/author relationship takes over, and there is just no telling where a revision goes then. If Red found an agent who wanted the manuscript as is, you can bet the editor will have changes, which may be big or small and you don't always know that before you sign the contract.

With my first book, I wasn't sure about some of the cuts being suggested by my editor, so I asked my former agent what to do. She said she'd step in if she had to, because it was important for me to keep a good relationship with the editor. Eventually, I just decided to stand up for myself, but a writer at that point is in a position like book triage. You have to decide what to really fight for, and to keep those, you have to let other things go or change. I let one of the character's importance and storyline go to keep some of the other aspects I wanted.
 

Teriann

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Haupe, see why I like it in the pit. This is the land of "there are no easy answers."

It's also the land of "there is no panacea"

I think your experience with SC is related to her approach as an agent, which I kind of like. I believe she's a volume agent -- subs many manuscripts widely. If she likes a book, she tries to find editors who fit and sends them pitches. She sells a lot but I bet she doesn't sell a ton of books she subs.

Many agents are relationship agents -- they have a few close relationships with editors. They look for work those editors want, and funnel it to them. In a way, they are outsourced slush readers. When agents say, "I don't have the connections to sell this," those are usually relationship agents. A lot of these agents are the very biggest ones too.

For agents in the middle, the "connections" excuse doesn't make sense to me. I have zero connections, but I've been able to find editors who might be interested in my books, and a few have requested. I haven't sold either, but I wish more agents did this. The best way to make connections with editors is by selling them books, not by inviting them to lunch.

I agree. My shock was more that this editor never heard of the H@rvey Kling3r agency. I didn't mind at all that she subbed to editors she didn't know personally. I agree that is a good thing.

When I "landed" that agency, my good friend who is an agent ('member the one who came to my wedding) was totally impressed. Her eyes got wide. She said, "HK is GOOD."

But here was an editor at Bl00msbury who never heard of her, or the agency, even though she sells lots and lots of books

That was when I realized that editors move in a different universe and because we or other agents think a name is big doesn't mean it means diddly squat to editors.
 

Red-Green

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This is the main reason I'm seriously considering these revisions. This agent is truly the sort of Big Deal who has contacts. Long before she was an agent, she was a multiple award winning editor for one of the Big Six. She knows people. I feel like she's the sort of agent most likely to find a good home for a difficult book. (As an editor, she went to bat to acquire The C0l0r Purp13, so that tells you something.)

So yeah, just gotta figure out what I can make work and how to communicate my goals and reservations in taking on the revisions.
 

Teriann

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This is the main reason I'm seriously considering these revisions. This agent is truly the sort of Big Deal who has contacts. Long before she was an agent, she was a multiple award winning editor for one of the Big Six. She knows people. I feel like she's the sort of agent most likely to find a good home for a difficult book. (As an editor, she went to bat to acquire The C0l0r Purp13, so that tells you something.)

So yeah, just gotta figure out what I can make work and how to communicate my goals and reservations in taking on the revisions.

If this is your assessment, then I like the idea of just doing what she wants, but asking her to let editors know in the pitch letter that initially you wrote the book with the character younger and less sophisticated (or whatever best describes the change.)

That way you guard yourself against the possibility someone mentioned -- of an editor not liking it precisely because it isn't as daring as it could be.
 

Haupe

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This is the main reason I'm seriously considering these revisions. This agent is truly the sort of Big Deal who has contacts. Long before she was an agent, she was a multiple award winning editor for one of the Big Six. She knows people. I feel like she's the sort of agent most likely to find a good home for a difficult book. (As an editor, she went to bat to acquire The C0l0r Purp13, so that tells you something.)

So yeah, just gotta figure out what I can make work and how to communicate my goals and reservations in taking on the revisions.
Red, in that case, sounds like the potential rewards are worth the soul-searching.
 

Teriann

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The other thing is, when someone reaches a conclusion like Red's, that a particular agent might really make a difference, you want to make sure you don't have any future regrets. When I went with JL (crazy dame) I had two other offers. For years I regretted not taking one of the other offers, an agent who kept a very low profile (which now I think is probably good). I didn't get over my regrets and "if onlys" until last year when I decided I'm better off with out an agent no matter the cost.

Recently I was going through old letters, and I found a 1998 letter from an editor at Simon and Schuster inviting me to resubmit my book if I made certain changes. I never did it.

I sat there looking at that letter wondering WTF was I thinking in 1998? An editor at S and S? Was I crazy?

I can remember back to why I didn't do it, but looking back now it seems stupid and foolish.

So there's that to keep in mind. You don't want to regret not doing something.
 

lkp

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Haupe, now I see you here --- what ever happened with your interview with Brene Brown? Did it ever happen?
 

alias octavia

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Ah, regrets. A writer's life feels full of this second guessing, doesn't it? Thanks Wordwrestler and Teri for sharing your experiences.

Red, makes sense. Still a tough situation. Good luck with the revision negotiation. If anyone can pull it off a revision like that and still have a great book, you can for sure.

Cricket! Sound like great screenplays to me. I would watch those :)
 

Haupe

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Ah, regrets. A writer's life feels full of this second guessing, doesn't it? Thanks Wordwrestler and Teri for sharing your experiences.

Red, makes sense. Still a tough situation. Good luck with the revision negotiation. If anyone can pull it off a revision like that and still have a great book, you can for sure.

Cricket! Sound like great screenplays to me. I would watch those :)
+1

Haupe, now I see you here --- what ever happened with your interview with Brene Brown? Did it ever happen?
No. Alas. Her schedule changed.
 

mario_c

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Oops, I just saw this, Cricket...
{{{Turnip}}} I've bored you enough with my thoughts, so I won't go any further here. My only advice now: think & drink. ;)

I can't believe I made it to the end of this week. Seriously, I've been dreading it for ages and am so glad it's over.

It won't happen because I've got commitments, but I SO wish I could stay in my jammies and write this whole weekend.

Random aside: I was watching an old X-Files tonight--so good! I wrote a screenplay starring (I hoped) Mitch Pileggi, which was a romantic comedy. I also wrote another called Looking For David Duchovny. Made me nostalgic tonight, watching them both. Wish I could've gotten those filmed.
That show was inspiring. I think a big reason why I wrote "full time" (yeah, past tense) had to do with the Morgan brothers+James Wong - they were my idols, and that show (only the Vancouver years) shocked my system in a good way. Why yes, I was in love with Gill Anderson. How did you know? :eek:
Have a tall one for me, and I will do the same.
 

Amarie

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should have stayed off the internet this weekend. bad thing about it-reminder of just how many nasty people there are in the world. To counteract, I tried a random act of kindness, it made me feel slightly better but I still need to go back under my rock for now.
 

alias octavia

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(((Amarie))) Everything okay? You need us to go BFF on someone? *cracks knuckles* Just say the word.

May tomorrow bring kindness back to you.
 

Cricket18

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{{{Amarie}}}

Oops, I just saw this, Cricket...
That show was inspiring. I think a big reason why I wrote "full time" (yeah, past tense) had to do with the Morgan brothers+James Wong - they were my idols, and that show (only the Vancouver years) shocked my system in a good way. Why yes, I was in love with Gill Anderson. How did you know? :eek:
Have a tall one for me, and I will do the same.

The show (yes--the Vancouver years!) was awesome. And dare I say...people used to tell me I looked like GA. I have an old black and white headshot...indeed I did!
 
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