Purgatory's Pit of Doom

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MrsBrommers

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Afternoon, Pit.

I know of a few who received good deals, only to fall short of expectations, and now struggle to get a new contract. I wonder why they don't simply change their pen name. It's a clean slate as far as the public is concerned.

I'm getting acupuncture to help a migraine today and would rather not spend the whole weekend like this. At least Baby B's improving.
 

Teriann

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Oh, and I guess I should say that Ellison's second novel was released posthumously, after having been "edited" down to a reasonable size by someone else. Ellison, he never finished it.

I've heard that some people who have a lot of critical success with a first novel have trouble finishing a second because they fear they can't live up to the expectations.

I wonder if such people in the future may use self-publishing to test writing that they may not claim later. I suspect that a good number of self-published novels are the pen names of established writers actually. If nothing else, people are taking things out of their closets to see if the rejections were wrong. (the problem with this is you usually have to publish a number of things before you get any attention, unless you self-promote which is sort of hard if you're hiding your identity -- and I'm not sure self-publishing really works as well for literary type fiction)
 

alias octavia

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I could see how such high expectations for a follow-up title would be difficult. Is that why Harper Lee never had another book? I know she always claimed it was because she only had the one to write, but that book is so great you would think there would be more in the well to draw from.

There is something to be said for writing in obscurity - no one really cares what I work on next. That is why I'd prefer gradual success, one book at a time, getting better with each one. Less stress. But right now, just breaking in proves challenging. I would take whatever I could get.

I agree, Teri, I wonder how many established writers are self-publishing under pen names to test the waters. Many question whether literary fiction has potential for success in this arena. I think it is possible. Right now that type of work is so stuck on what everyone else thinks of it: awards, etc. But for the daring, I think there could be an audience out there. Particularly for those who have previously published traditionally or who have a strong short story list of credentials in prominent journals. I think you will see literary fiction break out, as more and more of these authors are being denied access to traditional paths because they don't represent a "sure thing" or the next blockbuster or they refuse to re-write their book to be YA.
 

Teriann

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So I just had a really interesting discussion with an editor at a major house about agents. She wanted to know why I don't want to work with an agent. So I told her. The moment I hit the send button, I worried that I went too far.

We had an interesting back and forth. I always let editors have the last word of course, but I'd like to share with you all how the conversation went.

She strongly strongly encouraged me to work with an agent and even after hearing some of my horror stories, she said, "Keep an open mind. The publishing world is vast and I'm sure there is someone out there you'd enjoy working with."

I told her that if an editor wants to buy one of my books, but would rather not deal directly with a writer, I'd be happy to hire a literary attorney to speak for me and negotiate for me.

She said she doesn't mind at all communicating directly with writers, but she prefers writers to have agents when they approach her because it cuts down on the amount of reading she has to do and "there are only so many hours in the day."

So the reason she wants writers to have agents is because it makes her life easier.

You gotta love that. She didn't try to convince me that I would benefit from having an agent, but that the editors benefit, which of course I already knew.

I'm supposed to give away all control and 15% of my earnings to make her life easier. you know, because compared to writers, editors have it so rough.

(She offered to read my manuscript, but it was clear she didn't like breaking her rule because she's afraid of opening the floodgate.)

I don't blame her. If I could make rules which would make my life easier I'd do it too. Since writers are fungible, why not create a policy which randomly keeps out a good number of them?
 
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Snappy

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(((Red))) Ponder it over the weekend. See how it feels on Monday.

<--- Look, I am officially Snappy now! Gracias to Mac.
 

Catwoman

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{{Mrs}} but yay babyB is better.

Ugh Red, what are you going to do?

I can absolutely understand the mind trip of feeling the pressure to follow up the first success, esp. if it's a major best-seller. But if they don't write another novel, what are they doing, instead? Working at Home Depot? Surely they can't be living off the royalties for the rest of their life.

Isn't the reason we all became writers in the first place was because there was nothing else we wanted to do?
 

SteveCordero

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{{{Red}}} Like Snappy said, use the weekend to think it over.

Also, LOL, Snappy. I've always known you as Snappy. What was your name before? I guess I never paid attention and knew it was you from the wolf avy.
 

kellion92

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(((Red))) I'm sorry.

Well, hello, Snappy! How will we recognize you?
 

Red-Green

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{{{Red}}} Like Snappy said, use the weekend to think it over.

I think I'll be using the weekend to drink it over.

Nooooooooo. *gnashes teeth on your behalf* That's the whole point of your book.

(You can't listen to me, obviously, but argh!)

Actually, I think I must listen to you. I think I can maybe add a year and still be true to the story, but I think a 15-year-old Wavy is a completely different creature.
 

alias octavia

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(((Red))) You have to trust your gut on this one.

But, I will say that I agree with Haupe 100% - I think it weakens the power and what is so special/complex/beautiful about your book.
 

Teriann

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:)It may not work, but one possibility is to pull out all the stops, do whatever the agent wants without compromise, and then when you land an editor, see if you can convince the editor to put it back the way it was.*

You never know . . . The book A. is publishing is very very different from the book which was submitted.

*And if the editor refuses, later after you collect a few awards, you can regale your audiences with the way a writer must sacrifice integrity to get published and everyone will agree that the book would have been much stronger the way you initially wrote it.
 

MrsBrommers

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(((Red))) I'm sorry. I've been in that situation, and it is painful. I did the rewrite and knew it was the wrong thing to do, and I eventually walked away. Hurt like hell though. Listening to your gut is important.
 

Amarie

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:)It may not work, but one possibility is to pull out all the stops, do whatever the agent wants without compromise, and then when you land an editor, see if you can convince the editor to put it back the way it was.*

.

Teri has a good point here.

You could also just add a year like you said, send it back explaining why and maybe the agent will go for it.

Or you could do like I did-when I revised the first time for my former agent, I did what she wanted, but sent the revised manuscript back when a page-long letter of why I didn't think certain things she wanted worked. After she read it, she agreed and backed off on some of it. I did a second rewrite.

It is a hard choice, but because we are in the pit I can also say this- a big-time agent will at least get you read. No guarantee otherwise even if eds say they will read. If the agent goes for the revision, she might even be willing to put in the pitch letter that you have a version with a younger MC.

I'll stop talking now. I know too much advice can be maddening.
 

Haupe

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I just want Margaret Atwood to shepherd Red through to the right editor. Is that too much too ask?

Honestly, though, Teri has a point, though it's a gamble. (Not that I know anything.) Unless the editor was someone with huge clout, you'd risk the author-agent relationship when you ask for what you really want during negotiations.
 

Teriann

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You have to remember that I'm pretty much a shameless publishing whore.

The idea would only work after there was a signed contract, when Red is building a relationship with the editor, unless there were multiple offers, in which case Red would be in the driver's seat. You could never expect an agent to include something like that in the negotiations particularly if there's only one offer. As far as risking the agent-author relationship, the agent is a means to an end. The important thing is to get to the end. ETA: Gee I sound jaded.
 

Haupe

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You have to remember that I'm pretty much a shameless publishing whore.

The idea would only work after there was a signed contract, when Red is building a relationship with the editor, unless there were multiple offers, in which case Red would be in the driver's seat. You could never expect an agent to include something like that in the negotiations particularly if there's only one offer. As far as risking the agent-author relationship, the agent is a means to an end. The important thing is to get to the end. ETA: Gee I sound jaded.
Nah. I see "strategic thinker" with what you and Amarie are suggesting.
 

Teriann

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Thanks, Haupe.

Teri has a good point here.

You could also just add a year like you said, send it back explaining why and maybe the agent will go for it.

Or you could do like I did-when I revised the first time for my former agent, I did what she wanted, but sent the revised manuscript back when a page-long letter of why I didn't think certain things she wanted worked. After she read it, she agreed and backed off on some of it. I did a second rewrite.

It is a hard choice, but because we are in the pit I can also say this- a big-time agent will at least get you read. No guarantee otherwise even if eds say they will read. If the agent goes for the revision, she might even be willing to put in the pitch letter that you have a version with a younger MC.

I'll stop talking now. I know too much advice can be maddening.

I hadn't thought of putting in a pitch letter that there is a version with a younger character.

But I think an editor who loves the book will be open to whatever the author's original version was. The main thing is finding that editor, whatever it takes.
 

Red-Green

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Pitizens, these are all good things for me to think about. Because of who this agent is, I know she's looking for ways to make the book more commercially viable, so I have to go into it accepting that whatever changes I make are likely to stick. But I still feel like some negotiations are possible before I delve in. Because a lot of the comments are phrased like questions: Could we do this?

So I think I just need to spend some time cogitation and make a "counter offer" so to speak, to see what's negotiable.

It's hard, though, with a book you love personally. I've queried plenty of books I would have been happy to gut for the right agent/editor. This one just isn't.
 
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