Purgatory's Pit of Doom

Catwoman said:

Soul -- I told myself I had to get published before I got another tattoo. HA!

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HA! Cat if I told myself that I'd never get another tattoo ever again!

Teriann said:

AW can give you a really false impression. But over the years I've seen people strutting around like big stuff with a hot shot agent and a book deal with a major publisher. They strut for a year waiting counting the minutes their book comes out. Then a few months later *poof* they disappear. No more posts. So all there is left to read is the strutting and how 'everyone here needs to do just what I did if you want to make it big.'

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Good point, Teri. I can see how it'd be easy to strut and preen when one has an agent/deal. Shit I know I'd want to! When one works hard they are excited! But like you said it's the 'you should follow my path. It happened tome and it WILL happen to you - that grates. But very few continue to post about their journey once their book has come out and of course, strut/preeners would feel embarrassed to admit if their sales were low/their pub dropped them/their agent gave them the axe.

Publishing success (for all but the lucky few) is like a shooting star. You wait and wait and hope and hope and when it happens (IF it happens) it's beautiful and awe inspiring but blink and it's gone.

Catwoman said:

Here's what I want to know, esp. after reading that article. Now I haven't read Am@nd@ H0ck1ing, but given all the rave reviews and cult following, I'm guessing it's not crap. You're going to tell me that every single agent and editor that read her partial or full beforehand deemed it crap? I don't get it. The genre is already popular. It obviously hooked readers. The industry is that far off?

Everyone says a book that's well-written will trump all. If an agent can't put a ms down, she signs you, right? Come on -- H@rry P0tter I understand the resistance. There wasn't anything like it out there, but to be turned down by everyone and then have it go on to mega success????

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Cat I'd say 'gate keeper' subjectivity trumped all (until very recently). What one person thinks is an awesome story I may hate.

Also it's strictly business for agents/eds. If they think they can sell your book they'll sign you. If they don't or if they think they'd need to put too much work in it to be worth their time (they gotta make a profit) they'll R you. That's my 2 cents, anyway.

I've had agents sing my ms's praises. One said it's a very rare ms that she reads to the end and holds her interest. Didn't stop her from R'ing me. One agent said my ms was marketable and she thought it'd sell. She still R'd me. So I think 'falling in love' for an agent doesn't just mean falling in love with the writing...they also need to fall in love with the amount of $$ they think they can make from the sale.

Amarie said:

For those megasuccess books, it's a case of storytelling trumping everything else, and how many agents, who we assume are very well-read, can still read and manage to overlook other flaws to see that? As much as I love reading good storytelling, I don't think now I could pick a great story out of the slush if it had lots of other problems. I can't shut off my internal editor.

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Good point Amarie...before I started writing I read with a far less critical eye. I just wanted a good story didn't care much about the writing. Now my editorial eye is far sharper and bad writing can ruin a book for me....but for some agents maybe that means they shoot down a book that's good but has errors that THEY find glaring but the general public would love to read

ink wench said:

QFT

The greater the hopes I have for something, the more extreme the swings are.

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This. Exactly.

Mornin', Pit

{{{Dr. Von Ink}}} And so true on the extreme swings

{{{Roly}}} You need to hire someone to screen your media so all reverences to book/tv/movie deals are wiped out. Or have your own version of the Chinese Firewall

I don't know if I really have a love/hate relationship with my writing, because it's usually a love the writing or hate myself: "Damnit, that's not what I meant to write! But, f**, how the hell do I write what I meant to write?"

I blame it on being a child of cinema rather than books. All my books are movies in my head that I try to transcribe, most of the time unsuccessfully.

SteveCordero said:

I blame it on being a child of cinema rather than books. All my books are movies in my head that I try to transcribe, most of the time unsuccessfully.

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This. I have a double whammy, because the books are movies in my head, but I'm blind. I "hear" the story and try to transcribe it. How's that for weird?

Its2Snappy said:

This. I have a double whammy, because the books are movies in my head, but I'm blind. I "hear" the story and try to transcribe it. How's that for weird?

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Wow, that's tough.

I at least can sit back and watch and report. That's probably why I'm pretty good at dialogue. That's the easiest to transcribe.

'I blame it on being a child of cinema rather than books. All my books are movies in my head that I try to transcribe, most of the time unsuccessfully.' This exactly Steve.

I have the opposite problem. I'm a child of books, so my books are too bookish!

So sorry about the coffee maker, Ink. That's a sad, sad morning. I will make a pot of coffee and toast you with it.

hey, if you can see it's not what you meant to write, that's half the battle. sometimes I don't even realize how off the mark i am for quite some time. i revise for ages. i'm pretty amazed at people that can revise in one round. it takes me many, many rounds to get it even close to where i want it to be. and even then, it needs more work.

I'm more like Kellion. I'm such a book nerd that I frequently start narrating my own life as if it were a story. (In my head only, thank you. I'm not the crazy woman muttering to herself.)

Coffee.... I am sufficiently caffeinated for now. And thankfully we have a french press to tide us over until we return from our road trip and can buy a new automatic.

Regarding Soul and the "I didn't fall in love with it" agent rejection, which has irritated every one of us particularly coming from an agent who's job is to sell the book.

The first time I saw that agent reject, I thought, "I could care less whether you love it. I want you to sell it." (Is the Campbell's soup salesman in love with Chicken Noodle?)

*music plays* Altogether now (hit it Tina Turner!):

What's love got to do, got to do with it
What's love but a sweet old fashioned notion

I was reading the thread over in the self publishing section on agent-assisted self-publishing, and a post by someone who I know from elsewhere about how her agent invested so much time and effort into editing the book that she's entitled to 15% if the book gets self-published, that a new opinion is taking form in my head

It's common rejection from editors, so agents can be simply imitating the editor . .

Or it could be that they genuinely see themselves as collaborators, editors, co-writers, at least some of the brains behind the book.

You can't publish a book which you don't love: Editors really do have to love their books.

Is having an agent as essentially a co-author a bad thing? Maybe not. Depends.

But when I first started querying in 2005 after not having queried for a long, long time, I thought an agent would sell my book, not become my creative collaborator. Just pointing out that it's one of the things that really has changed, and for me, explains the 'I didn't fall in love' thing. Again, I'm truly not saying that an agent as collaborator is a bad thing, which entirely depends on where the writer is with her career, and how good the agent is as an editor/ collaborator.

Ink, the Star Trek bit cracked me up.

JennW said:

it takes me many, many rounds to get it even close to where i want it to be. and even then, it needs more work.

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This is me, and when I send it off to be read by someone, it's because i know if I don't force myself to push it out the door, i'll keep putting in and taking out commas forever.

Some of my most vivid memories of my childhood and young adulthood are of certain movies, so even though I love books and always have, I guess I'm more of a child of the cinema.

I've had two agents and two editors this year praise my mms to high heaven, and then decline based on the very things they praised. I agree with some of their observations, enough to trunk the book and consider revisions. Wouldn't it have been nice if they left the door open to an R&R? They love the writing and the characters, but they don't think I can improve the book?

Ah, well, I hope the revised mms will do better, whenever I get around to sending it out.

I'm torn on the "I didn't love it enough" rejection. I hate that one. Loathe it. Why do you need to love something to sell it? But...

I've had an agent who didn't love my book. And when the book didn't sell quickly, that was the end. I do believe that if she'd loved that book, she would have worked harder to sell it. So yes... given my past experience, I do want an agent who loves my book as much as I do.

As for co-author agents, again just my experience... I want an agent who is collaborative. I can keep up with PM and see what's selling, but I don't keep in direct contact with editors, and I don't know the market as well as a good agent should. So I want someone who does know these things to push me the best directions.

I want to sell stories, and frankly, I'm not particularly precious about my ideas. There are things I won't compromise, but mostly I'm flexible. I know lots of other people feel differently, and that's fine. But I love that I'm basically collaborating on a rewrite of my current WIP with my agent. Her ideas are turning it into a very different book, but I'm excited about it and I believe she's right that it will make it more likely to sell. That's what I want.

Got an editor response with this (your classic nightmare)


We're happy to take a look at a your manuscript, but we do already have an upcoming project on our list with a very similar plot that would likely make us unable to move forward with this. Please feel free to send the manuscript at your convenience.

All best,

A major publisher with a similar book coming out? *bangs head against already damaged walls*

ink wench said:

I'm torn on the "I didn't love it enough" rejection. I hate that one. Loathe it. Why do you need to love something to sell it? But...

I've had an agent who didn't love my book. And when the book didn't sell quickly, that was the end. I do believe that if she'd loved that book, she would have worked harder to sell it. So yes... given my past experience, I do want an agent who loves my book as much as I do.

As for co-author agents, again just my experience... I want an agent who is collaborative. I can keep up with PM and see what's selling, but I don't keep in direct contact with editors, and I don't know the market as well as a good agent should. So I want someone who does know these things to push me the best directions.

I want to sell stories, and frankly, I'm not particularly precious about my ideas. There are things I won't compromise, but mostly I'm flexible. I know lots of other people feel differently, and that's fine. But I love that I'm basically collaborating on a rewrite of my current WIP with my agent. Her ideas are turning it into a very different book, but I'm excited about it and I believe she's right that it will make it more likely to sell. That's what I want.

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This is why I think it's so personal, and really can work (with the right agent / author combo)

It's just so different from either "agent as fiduciary" or even "agent as mere salesperson."

In the mid 1980s I knew someone repped by Je@n N@ggar. The writer said, "My agent looks my books and says whether or not she can sell it." That was it. The beginning and the end.

It's just so different now.

For all sorts of people, the agent-as-editor can really work, I think particularly beginners. If you can get a good agent-as-collaborator early on, when it's so hard to find people willing to read and critique (or they try to gauge the beginner by charging a lot) you can learn a lot.

It can also work for people not beginners, depending on the skill of the agent.

ETA: But for people suffering over agent rejections, this might give some insight into what the rejection really means, and it has nothing to do with the inherent worth of the manuscript.

{{{Teri}}}

That's my take on the "didn't love it" part, Dr. Von Ink. If there is an emotional connection between the project and the agent, then there will be more intense advocacy.

I see it in my profession, and remember, I'm legally required to provide a certain level of advocacy. Agents can't get sued for malpractce, we can.

I provide each client what the law requires, but if I like the client or am passionate about their cause, I will go well above and beyond that. That's simply human nature.

Emotional investment IS important in business.

ink wench said:

I've had an agent who didn't love my book. And when the book didn't sell quickly, that was the end. I do believe that if she'd loved that book, she would have worked harder to sell it. So yes... given my past experience, I do want an agent who loves my book as much as I do.

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I like the idea of a world where an agent either says they can sell a book or they can't, but that seems to be a vanishing world. One of the reasons I left my previous agent is because she was so unenthusiastic about the sci fi I wanted to write. I knew with that lack of enthusiasm, it wasn't likely to go far, and I was determined to give it a better shot.

Amarie said:

I like the idea of a world where an agent either says they can sell a book or they can't, but that seems to be a vanishing world.

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Not vanishing. Gone.

I think 2 things caused the change. First, Maxwell Perkins editors are a thing of the past. Editors want something basically camera ready. Yes, writers do revisions under contract, but particularly with new writers, editors want it already revised. They are not looking for diamonds in the rough.

Smith says the change occurred when publishers outsourced their slush piles to agents.

Put those things together, and you have the current situation.

(But Smith also says the current situation is not stable and will be entirely different 10 or even 5 years from now.)

Crap, I want an agent who loves my book more than I do because I'm a fair weather friend to my WIPs. Once something new comes along, I'd just toss my old projects aside. Wanna know why I have so many things in the trunk? That's why. Once querying (or selling as the case may be) becomes difficult, I quit for something shinier.

Teriann said:

This is why I think it's so personal, and really can work (with the right agent / author combo)

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Yeah, and I think I should have stressed the word "good" more in my post. By that I mean someone who really does have the pulse of the market, and gets my writing. Not just the one book, but in general. Finding that person, however, is easier said than done. And we can't know if we have until we take a chance.

They may love your book BUT . .

being my own literary agent has been a real eye-opener. I expect my next advance to be similar to the one I got (average, not setting any records, but nothing to sneeze at either). Given the time and care that I'm putting into selling the book, and the sheer number of hours that it takes, the problem I have with the model is that I don't see how an agent can edit, read a manuscript repeatedly, take the time to sell it -- and it does take time unless it sells quickly -- and still manage not to be on skid row given the 15% the agent will earn spread out over at least 3 years.

By my calculation, an agent has to sell 50 books like mine in a given year just to earn a modest NYC income, and I don't see how they can.

Teriann said:

Ink, this is the pit so I can say this:

Agents do love books, but I don't believe any agent will ever, ever, love your book or care more about your book than you do. It's a business. Your agent has 50 clients and an in-box full of queries.

But as long as the relationship benefits you and your work, I say yay.

ETA: being my own literary agent has been a real eye-opener. I expect my next advance to be similar to the one I got (average, not setting any records, but nothing to sneeze at either). Given the time and care that I'm putting into selling the book, and the sheer number of hours that it takes, the problem I have with the model is that I don't see how an agent can edit, read a manuscript repeatedly, take the time to sell it -- and it does take time unless it sells quickly -- and still manage not to be on skid row given the 15% the agent will earn spread out over at least 3 years.

By my calculation, an agent has to sell 50 books like mine in a given year just to earn a modest NYC income, and I don't see how they can.

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i really do believe my agent helped me craft my book into something saleable...its changed a lot since then- but still...and also there is no way I would have had meetings with two editors without her- she had a balls to ask for that- and one of those editors turned out to be the one who offered. And, I'm hoping the other will give a very close read on my next MS as a result.
i think some agents are good eggs... just like people

Of course . . . good and bad . . .

Meanwhile, I have to go do actual paid work today even though I like the discussions here better than I like working.

This is pit worthy: Remember the client I was working so hard for even though the facts of her case were horrible? Well, before I got the appeal written, what did she do? She allegedly committed another crime and she's back in court.

I really really hate it when my clients do that and ruin all my hard work.

I say allegedly because remember that all my clients are innocent. They have all been misidentified, or misunderstood, or wrongly accused.

Steve: not to be cynical, but I'm paid by the hour, so it doesn't really matter how I feel about individual clients, I have an incentive to do everything possible for each of them. Of course, I love every one of them.

Teri, I was being a bit facetious when I said that. No worries. (The part about me falling out of love when hit by a new shiny, however, is true. I'd make a lousy agent, for my own stuff or other people's stuff.)

I am pretty damn sure my agent is not earning a living off her sales. She only has about 15 clients, for starters. I think, for a lot of agents, it's a job they do because they want to do it.

ink wench said:

Teri, I was being a bit facetious when I said that. No worries. (The part about me falling out of love when hit by a new shiny, however, is true. I'd make a lousy agent, for my own stuff or other people's stuff.)

I am pretty damn sure my agent is not earning a living off her sales. She only has about 15 clients, for starters. I think, for a lot of agents, it's a job they do because they want to do it.

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I actually know of a few who have independent wealth, so they become literary agents the way some wealthy people sit on boards of nonprofits and art museums and private schools.


ETA: Anyone still doubt that there is a random element to all of this? Six months ago, I sent a query packet to Major Publisher and got back a post card reject telling me to find an agent because the publishing house refuses to deal directly with authors.

Being rather persistent, and perhaps a little dense, I waited 4 months and mailed the exact same package to the exact same address, but I put in a different editor's name. This time I received a request to send the manuscript.

(Ink, I think I've lasted this long because when someone tells me "no" what I hear is "wait 4 months and try again." And sorry I missed your facetious tone!)'