Purgatory's Pit of Doom

SteveCordero said:

It is annoying Teri and we can all be kicking the wall, but it's still out there. And it's not just agents saying it. It's editors rejecting MS and stating it as a reason.

This is a money making business and if editors are shooting down MSs because of it, it trickles down. Of course, there can be an editor who goes against that, like you say that your France book is getting a nice look, but as we all know, the exception is not the rule.

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A look at the wonderful children's books and books for teenagers set elsewhere should debunk that real quick.

I say for right now, we agree to disagree. But over the next few months, I will have lots of contact with editors, including my own, who was the head guy at Abrams Children's for several years.

I'll ask some questions and get back to you all in January.

Catwoman said:

Sorry Soul. Here, wash down that tooth with this (hands Soul a glass of something that was sitting in the corner).

And because I have nothing to add career-wise, I thought I'd add another present under the tree. My Aunt Tootie knitted it. I think it's a sweater. (holds up a bright red garment with one arm longer than the other and a fuzzy brown reindeer on the front adorned with a bell)

Actually, I think Steve would look darling in it!

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Are you sure that's a reindeer? No offense to Aunt Tootie, but it looks like Cthulu rolled around in a pile of poo and then slit his wrists...

Teriann said:

An awful lot of editors requested my middle grade novel based on a query, and it's clear my book is set in France.

Right now I have 7 editors reading it. One reject liked the setting.

I may not sell it, but all these requests tell me that the setting won't be why.

I say for right now, we agree to disagree. But over the next few months, I will have lots of contact with editors, including my own, who was the head guy at Abrams Children's for several years.

I'll ask some questions and get back to you all in January.

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I really have no clue what we're agreeing to disagree about.

Have editors said that "foreign books" won't sell? Yes

Have editors requested "foreign books"? Yes

Ask your editor friend about it. I bet he'll say the same.

BTW, I've feeling jealous that Teri is getting all the reps about this and I'm not.

I think what we're disagreeing about is whether to take a statement like "books with foreign settings don't sell" seriously given the number of books with foreign settings which sell in enormous numbers.

I don't think a writer should take that sort of thing seriously.

I also don't believe it's true, no matter who says it.

Really, nobody knows what will sell to the public -- although people make guesses, ideas change constantly.

If a publishing house publishes a book which tanked, they won't be able to publish a similar book until it fades from the memory of the sales force, even if nobody really knows what caused it to tank.

I really can't imagine my editor at Abrams agreeing with that. I just can't imagine it. That's why I want to ask him.

Steve: Remember that my job in life is to disagree with everything you say.

I definitely agree with the notion that nobody knows what sells. That's why we have so many breakout hits.

But on the flipside, pubhouses are making decisions on what they think they can sell and they are the ones putting out the initial money.

The "doesn't sell" line is based on what they think will and won't sell. It's happened in other situations such as the white washing of YA covers. That doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean they're not saying it.

SteveCordero said:

I definitely agree with the notion that nobody knows what sells. That's why we have so many breakout hits.

But on the flipside, pubhouses are making decisions on what they think they can sell and they are the ones putting out the initial money.

The "doesn't sell" line is based on what they think will and won't sell. It's happened in other situations such as the white washing of YA covers. That doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean they're not saying it.

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There have been a number of private communications, and I think I'm going to venture out here in public and give my opinions only because I think the pit is a sort of special place where people are allowed to voice opinions which really go against the grain.

When an editor rejects a manuscript you cannot believe the reasons given. Editors tend to be very, very nice when rejecting particularly when the rejection goes via someone they have a relationship with, whether it be agent or author.

You know how it is when you have to break up with someone. Do you really tell them all the reasons? Unless you're mean, it isn't necessary. So you find a nice reason to break up and don't bring up the stuff that is sort of cruel and will hurt.

Sometimes there aren't any mean reasons. You just don't want to be with that person. So you say, "I just can't," and you make up something so preposterous there's no arguing. I've gotten some rejections from editors for the silliest reasons you just have to wonder.

Sometimes weird reasons are sincere, but if so most likely based on that particular book or that particular person's most recent experiences which have most likely changed by now.

All you have to do is look at the fact that lots and lots of books for teenagers and children are published with foreign settings to know that books for children with foreign settings sell to editors and to the public.

And as a general principle, I don't think anyone should listen to those kinds of shoulds and don'ts.

Yeah, I tend to think publishing puts out books they want people to read more than books people are hoping to see.

Thinking about kids I went to school with, some would've read just about anything, some you could barely get to read for homework, and the rest stuck to specific genres, but there should be a book for every reader. I don't know about with boys, but girls will definitely read about a foreign place made glamorous and magical-sounding.

White-washed, too-generic covers piss me off.

Then again.......I know how hard it's been for my friend who teaches 8th grade English to get her non-honors classes to read anything at all in recent years. Scary.


I'm still in the computer Pit. Hoping D. can fix it this afternoon or evening so I can still get my blog post up. I can't let my system on the internet until this stupid trojan is gone. Hackers are getting creative about where they hide them in Windows registry.

Hmmm....I just realized Wolf_Storm was contracted on a synopsis that didn't mention a country, and then I set it in Slovakia. Of course it's got totally American kids, so I'm not sure that counts.

Amarie said:

Hmmm....I just realized Wolf_Storm was contracted on a synopsis that didn't mention a country, and then I set it in Slovakia. Of course it's got totally American kids, so I'm not sure that counts.

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The book I'm shopping has a thirteen-year-old who is half American and half French.

I'm writing another one set in Sacramento, even though after the last one (set in Virginia and requiring 2 research trips) I promised that the next one would be set in Venice. (Can you hear my argument to my husband about why we just have to go?)

But it occurred to me, as much as I like exotic settings, it would be a heck of a lot easier to set a book in Sacramento, so I'm working on mystery set in gold rush Sacramento. At least I know exactly what the weather is like at any given time, what sorts of vegetation grows. Sort of helpful.

Filigree, I devoured those Mary Stewart books and any other books set as far away from Iowa as possible when I was a kid. I still have a story I wrote when I was 16 which I set in Paris, and I had of course never been visited. It's got spies and aliens in it too, though I'm not sure why.

Could get beyond the first couple chapters in GWDT. Think I've said that before.

Most of the YA I've read that's set in a foreign country still involves American teens and still has a very American flavor to it. The location isn't central to the story. Which is a shame, and who knows whether it was written that way, or whether an editor pushed it that way so teens could "relate."

BTW, I hate the idea of "relate." Biggest BS excuse in publishing, as far as I'm concerned.

Also *smooches* for the song love reps.

'My audience can't relate to this book' is one excuse I loathe. After too long in the agent-editor-publisher-reader cycle, I wonder if it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I do middle-grade, which is admittedly different. I haven't paid much attention to the whole YA trend of the past 7 or so years because I knew I would never write YA. But here's the thing to remember about trends: They are trends. (How was that for wise)

My first story ever written with the intent to publish was called "The Remarkable Hippopotamus." I was 10. I don't think it ever got all the way written, but I had a scene in mind with a small-town parade led by a hippopotamus.

Eta: I'm all for writing something marketable, but a lot of the advice out there is not helpful. My most recent example. I mentioned that my former agent read a women's novel of mine (with a crime element in it ) and he told me to rewrite it as a crime novel. Turned out he'd recently been to a conference and two editors said they were looking for the next Patricia C0rnwall. My agent told me to buy a copy of a Patricia C0rnwall book. His exact words: "This is what editors are telling me they want." I read the book. Now, if you were to pick the one author and book in the entire universe which is the polar opposite of my sensibilities, that book would be it. I probed a little to find out what he meant by "editors are telling me," to find out DUH those were two editors at a crime novel convention. I tried to tell him why a criminal defense type with my outlook could never write a book like that and he repeated, "That's what editors are telling me they want."

Teriann said:

(I can think of one series of fantasy books set in England. Hint: The author is richer than the queen)

*back to kicking walls*

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This isn't applicable because it's a book set in England and it was sold/distributed in England first. Once it began to do well there, it went to auction in the U.S.

I think most of what editors say is b.s. It's like what Teri said, they pull something lame out of their bums, whether it be setting or whatever. If the book is brilliant, no one will care. At least I hope not because my WIP starts in England.

Amarie said:

Ink, all I can do is

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+1!

I've officially entered a sh!t st0rm. I'm covered head to toe in hellhound poo.

Eww, Cricket. LOL.

Computer fixed. At least for now. I'll have to figure out what memory stick died eventually, but it'll keep. This time, I only loaded writing-related things so it's easy to keep up with back-ups - and wipe the whole thing when I put new guts in the case in a few months.

In solidarity with everything else recently, our Christmas tree is leaning a tiny bit more each day.

Morning pit.

Interesting convo in here, as always. I love following along.

(((Cricket))) Sorry for whatever is wrong -- I hope it rights itself

Glad your computer is fixed, KT!

Yeah, I also believe that most reasons given don't matter. I bet the real reason is sometimes usually "just didn't love it enough" but that sounds so lame so they mention something that makes the book a challenge to sell, that raises the "love it enough" bar.

Non-US settings are one such challenge.

(((Cricket))) Hope you can wash that poo off you soon.

kellion92 said:

I bet the real reason is sometimes usually "just didn't love it enough" but that sounds so lame so they mention something that makes the book a challenge to sell, that raises the "love it enough" bar.

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This. I do think there's also a certain truth to some of the excuses. Like an editor might actually love something, but knows acquisitions always shoots down X type of book. Or that they already bought X type of book recently.... Then there might be no point in fighting for a lost cause.

Teriann said:

And as a general principle, I don't think anyone should listen to those kinds of shoulds and don'ts.

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+1

K. Taylor said:

Yeah, I tend to think publishing puts out books they want people to read more than books people are hoping to see.

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+1. I think this is true of most media. Like if I see just one more superhero movie I'm gonna puke. Show me something different please! But of course Hollywood thinks those movies are a sure bet so we get bombarded and we're forced to watch what Hollywood wants us to watch. Publishing is going farther and farther in a similar 'force the audience' direction.

((Cricket)) I hope everything is okay?

((KT)) but also LOLOL @ your Christmas tree!


Excellent point, Ink. It's easy to blame the ed, as they often seem to be the ones 'blocking' our dreams. But they have hoops to jump through, too. I wonder just how often it's actually acquisitions doing the blocking...

Nothing new to report publishing wise (Cat you're not alone there!) I've finally....FINALLY gotten through my list of US agents. (Yeah Teri I can feel you rolling your eyes. I spent hours making that freaking list, no way will I let it go to waste!). Glad to have it over. Might start picking at making a list of editors to contact directly though just the thought of making ANOTHER list makes me nauseated.

Thinking of getting another tattoo, that's the extent of my life's excitement right now

Go Soul!

And... because I had to: another Pitmas carol.


Email dings, are you listening,
In the blood, hope is singing
A pitiful sight, we're crazy tonight.
Trudging through publishing's wonderland.

Gone away is peace and joy,
Here to stay is pain and oy-
Another new pass, what a pain in the ass,
Cursing through publishing's wonderland.

In our dreams we can all quit our day jobs,
And be adored by critics and the mobs.

They'll ask: Was it so hard?
We'll say: No way,
Then laugh and try to cover up our scars.

Later on, sub a new book,
Great writing and catchy hook.
Once more we'll hit send, our hopes will all end,
Bloodied in publishing's wonderland.

In our dreams we can all quit our day jobs,
And abuse adverbs, commas, even nouns.
We'll have lots of fun without those day jobs,
Until reality knocks us down.

When you write, ain't it thrilling,
It's the rest that's so chilling
We'll dream and we'll drink, our hopes in the sink,
Screaming through publishing's wonderland.

<- Ink you rock so hard I had to break out Snoopy!

Thanks again that's awesome!!

*snicker*

I think we're finally starting to tap into Ink's procrastination potential.

Sorry for the storm, Cricket. I hope you have a raincoat?

Mornin', Pit

{{{Cricket}}}

{{{KT}}}

Dr. Von Ink is full of win.

*clap, clap clap* Excellent song, Ink.

(((Cricket))) May the shit storm disintegrate.

A general (((Pit))) for all I've missed.

Can I just tell you how much I really hate this time of year? Loathe, despise. Life has been cruelly pittish to me the last couple of weeks. An illness that has everyone in my house sick (I'm dubbing it the WORST COLD EVER). WCE has my ears all blocked up and wouldn't you know, I fell down the steps. My foot isn't pretty right now, people. Never a good time when you have to google "How do you know if your foot is broken or sprained?" Super fun chasing two kids around house too.

Also, I have gotten TWO responses to queries sent in JUNE this week. One was a R and the other a request. In true pittish fashion the agent wants an exclusive and required hardcopy so I had to hobble to the post office to stand in crazy line with all the slow grandmas mailing out stuff that would probably go better under the pit tree.

Did I mention I hate this time of year?

Anyway, sorry to ramble on, a friend sent me this link http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/story/2011-12-14/self-published-authors-ebooks/51851058/1

Thought it was relevant given all the discussion in here as of late.